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  1. #121
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's your assertion, not fact.

    It is important in terms of what begets what.
    Exactly. And belief begets both.

    No, I'm not. Both are rational. Both are (can be) responses to emotional cues.
    Let's take your second statement>So, we are in agreement then about what rational in this case refers to: Thinking and/or feeling?



    I get emotional when something goes against me. Emotion isn't the primary substance, it couldn't be because something so strong cannot come from no where. It is so strong because it either resonates exactly with me, or it is antithesis to me somehow. Implying an underlying something that my emotion is responding to.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  2. #122
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Exactly. And belief begets both.
    Nope. Both are possible without belief.

    I get emotional when something goes against me. Emotion isn't the primary substance, it couldn't be because something so strong cannot come from no where. It is so strong because it either resonates exactly with me, or it is antithesis to me somehow. Implying an underlying something that my emotion is responding to.
    Nothing comes from nothing. Emotions are triggered by external (and internal) events.

    Emotion cannot be dependent upon belief because creatures incapable of holding beliefs nevertheless manifest emotion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #123
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Nope. Both are possible without belief.



    Nothing comes from nothing. Emotions are triggered by external (and internal) events.
    Yes, I'm just calling those internal and external events beliefs.

    Emotion cannot be dependent upon belief because creatures incapable of holding beliefs nevertheless manifest emotion.
    Belief means something that we've internalized as an object of our truth. An animal will have internalized an object of its truth when it learns that if it behaves, it will be treated better. Therefore it's 'emotion' is its expression of its subjective experiences based on how it has learned to be; it will wag its tail to express happiness because it has been affirmed that it is indeed true that he has been a good boy.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  4. #124
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Yes, I'm just calling those internal and external events beliefs.
    You can't just rename something to suit your argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #125
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I am asserting that beliefs are the 'events' you are talking about.

    Let us consider an 'event' that would create an emotional response as an example then: Say, being argued with.

    Man A says something and Man B disagrees with it. It makes Man A mad. Why?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #126
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Beliefs are not events. They are a response to events (in those capable of forming them).

    There are as many reasons for man A to be angry as there are A-men. Maybe he was already angry and is just using the disagreement to vent that emotion. Who can say?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #127
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Beliefs are not events. They are a response to events (in those capable of forming them).
    I do believe they are a response to original events, yes. Beliefs do not change often or easily. Beliefs are tied to values and when they change, it is a conscious event, not an unconscious emotional response.

    There are as many reasons for man A to be angry as there are A-men. Maybe he was already angry and is just using the disagreement to vent that emotion. Who can say?
    Why would he already be angry?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #128
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Why would he already be angry?
    "Who can say?"

    Maybe he stubbed his toe? (External event)
    Maybe he's hungry? (Internal event)
    Maybe his wife left him? (External event)
    Maybe Man B reminds him of his father? (Internal event)

    In any event it is not Man A's belief per se that causes his anger. Nor Man B's disagreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #129
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    "Who can say?"

    Maybe he stubbed his toe? (External event)
    Maybe he's hungry? (Internal event)
    Maybe his wife left him? (External event)
    Maybe Man B reminds him of his father? (Internal event)

    In any event it is not Man A's belief per se that causes his anger. Nor Man B's disagreement.

    I was referring to deep-seated anger, not superficial anger. Your examples related to deep anger are #3 and #4. Those might make another man happy. Why do they make him angry?


    So how do you define emotions and feelings?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #130
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I do believe they are a response to original events, yes. Beliefs do not change often or easily. Beliefs are tied to values and when they change, it is a conscious event, not an unconscious emotional response.
    Beliefs are tied to values for you. For me, they're tied to logic. As such, they change easily with persuasive evidence.

    For example, people used to believe that the world was flat. Show them a picture of a spherical earth and they'll change their belief. Faith is something else. It is belief without evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I was referring to deep-seated anger, not superficial anger. Your examples related to deep anger are #3 and #4. Those might make another man happy. Why do they make him angry?
    What difference does it make?

    My only point here was that PB is wrong to say that emotions are only ever influenced by thought. "Nothing more, nothing less".

    This is probably harder for NFs to understand since your emotional discourse is generally tightly integrated with your rational one.

    Thinkers will understand me, no doubt.

    If you have ever tried to console a terrified animal, or even a screaming baby, you would know that rational thought doesn't come into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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