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Borderline Personality Disorder

Isis

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http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publ...toms-of-borderline-personality-disorder.shtml

Above shows a list of symptoms of BPD. It is a serious mental illness. It can be caused by a combination of genetic and developmental factors. It is not something that is diagnosed easily and not easily treatable but can be treated successfully.

I suspect my friend suffers from this. He displays, to my knowledge, most of the symptoms. (I think you need 5 out of 9 for a diagnosis. I would say I have seen 7.)

All I have read has said to run for the hills. It is brutal for a non- BPD to deal with.
But I don't have the heart to run for the hills. Abandonement is a BPD sufferers biggest fear.
Anyone have experience with this and can share?
Thanks
 

Isis

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I have BPD.

Thank you for sharing. I commend you as it seems a difficult thing to say the least to deal with.
I don't know if you would be willing to PM with me sometime. If not- I understand. Thanks again.
 

Eugene Watson VIII

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You wouldn't say it's serious if someones got it under control. I have seen it before and advocate buddhism to reduce that loud clutter that is extraversion.
 

Isis

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You wouldn't say it's serious if someones got it under control. I have seen it before and advocate buddhism to reduce that loud clutter that is extraversion.

Point taken. I believe it is serious because we don't want to underplay it- as some people with BPD self injure or commit suicide. Also- some cannot maintain an intimate relationship which I consider a serious thing. But I have hope and really do believe it can be treated. But I do believe the person diagnosed but admit they have it and take full responsibility and steps towards their recovery. And resist the urge to manipulate their therapists which I have read is common with BPD.
 

SilkRoad

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I dealt with someone for a year and a half who, on the basis of the list of symptoms you cited, either has it or displays very similar traits. (I'd also say she has about 7 of them.) She is about 20 and was a little younger when I was involved in her life and I think it's still young enough to be uncertain about how someone's personality will solidify - and of course I'm not a trained psychologist. In MBTI terms I'm pretty sure she's either a withdrawn ENFP or an aggressive INFP.

I was trying to more or less befriend/mentor her but it turned out quite an unpleasant experience. She was very very jealous of me having any other friendships and either loudly proclaimed her jealousy, or tried to introduce herself into all my friends' lives (or at least, those dumb enough to friend her on FB, after I warned them...) and act as though she had friendships with them which were the same as the friendships I'd built up over five, ten or fifteen years. She wasn't able to comprehend things like personal boundaries, though I spelled out to her in harsh detail what I considered personal boundary violations, and she would do things like follow me down the street and jump onto public transport with me although I had told her the conversation was over and to go home - as well as grabbing hold of me and refusing to let go, etc. She also adopted my interests as her own - I realised gradually that there had been a woman before me (who I knew slightly) who she had done the same thing with, glommed onto extremely and started imitating her life. In both my case and the case of the woman before me it seemed like she considered us combination best friend/mom/big sister/lesbian crush/person to be imitated in every detail. Actually, I noticed that with a few of my friends she'd friended on FB she was imitating their style, interests etc in various ways too (they also noticed and mentioned it to me). It seems like an emptiness which pushes her to try to take a personality from others - she even talked to me about feelings of emptiness, not existing, needing to take things from others, etc which are all associated with BPD.

I've basically removed her from my life as I was unable to deal with the situation, after trying very hard. I didn't just cut her off - I made it very very clear, in a lot of detail, that I had tried and tried to have a semi-normal friendship with her, that I had given her many warnings that the situation was unsustainable, and that I was ending the friendship because her behaviour was so utterly unacceptable and destructive to me. She lives at home but her family is very dysfunctional and she doesn't get support, although other friends have offered various types of support (and I made them very aware both that she needed support, but also that I was no longer able to offer it). I found her extreme ingratitude and sense of entitlement hardest of all to deal with, honestly. She was very manipulative and I gradually realised that she was trying to keep me in her life, and make me put up with intolerable behaviour, by constantly promising to change.

I think the best thing I did was push her to get into therapy, but I'm not sure she's still doing therapy. We attend the same place of worship so we see each other occasionally though I don't see her much there these days. But I don't even say hello if I can avoid it because she's still showing some stalker-like behaviours. She's pursuing some of my friends in various ways and she just started studying at uni - pretty much exactly what I studied many years ago, which is definitely no coincidence. She is basically leaving me alone though which is a big relief. I have also warned my friends to be careful about interacting with her. I really got the impression with one of my friends in particular that, because this girl finally realised that her friendship was me was over, that she was trying to replace me with my friend (who has a lot of her own difficulties in life right now and REALLY doesn't need that.)

I probably sound quite harsh in this but it was a difficult experience and I don't think I was strong enough. I'm pretty sure she's mentally ill, whether BPD or otherwise, but what I found nastiest was just that she seemed to feel it ok to inflict a horrible, ungrateful, nasty personality on everyone else - especially someone who really tried to help, like me. And that's something outside of BPD - it's how she was choosing to behave. She's a very angry, aggressive, spiteful, bitter, negative person. I think anyone who deals with a friend or acquaintance with such problems needs to maintain rock solid boundaries (something I'm not historically good at, but this experience did help with that - I learned a lot about maintaining boundaries) and be prepared to say "no" constantly. The best thing to do is probably to encourage them to get professional help. And if you've done all you can and it's overwhelming, don't be afraid to remove yourself from their life. You can't save other people.
 

Isis

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I dealt with someone for a year and a half who, on the basis of the list of symptoms you cited, either has it or displays very similar traits. (I'd also say she has about 7 of them.) She is about 20 and was a little younger when I was involved in her life and I think it's still young enough to be uncertain about how someone's personality will solidify - and of course I'm not a trained psychologist. In MBTI terms I'm pretty sure she's either a withdrawn ENFP or an aggressive INFP.

I was trying to more or less befriend/mentor her but it turned out quite an unpleasant experience. She was very very jealous of me having any other friendships and either loudly proclaimed her jealousy, or tried to introduce herself into all my friends' lives (or at least, those dumb enough to friend her on FB, after I warned them...) and act as though she had friendships with them which were the same as the friendships I'd built up over five, ten or fifteen years. She wasn't able to comprehend things like personal boundaries, though I spelled out to her in harsh detail what I considered personal boundary violations, and she would do things like follow me down the street and jump onto public transport with me although I had told her the conversation was over and to go home - as well as grabbing hold of me and refusing to let go, etc. She also adopted my interests as her own - I realised gradually that there had been a woman before me (who I knew slightly) who she had done the same thing with, glommed onto extremely and started imitating her life. In both my case and the case of the woman before me it seemed like she considered us combination best friend/mom/big sister/lesbian crush/person to be imitated in every detail. Actually, I noticed that with a few of my friends she'd friended on FB she was imitating their style, interests etc in various ways too (they also noticed and mentioned it to me). It seems like an emptiness which pushes her to try to take a personality from others - she even talked to me about feelings of emptiness, not existing, needing to take things from others, etc which are all associated with BPD.

I've basically removed her from my life as I was unable to deal with the situation, after trying very hard. I didn't just cut her off - I made it very very clear, in a lot of detail, that I had tried and tried to have a semi-normal friendship with her, that I had given her many warnings that the situation was unsustainable, and that I was ending the friendship because her behaviour was so utterly unacceptable and destructive to me. She lives at home but her family is very dysfunctional and she doesn't get support, although other friends have offered various types of support (and I made them very aware both that she needed support, but also that I was no longer able to offer it). I found her extreme ingratitude and sense of entitlement hardest of all to deal with, honestly. She was very manipulative and I gradually realised that she was trying to keep me in her life, and make me put up with intolerable behaviour, by constantly promising to change.

I think the best thing I did was push her to get into therapy, but I'm not sure she's still doing therapy. We attend the same place of worship so we see each other occasionally though I don't see her much there these days. But I don't even say hello if I can avoid it because she's still showing some stalker-like behaviours. She's pursuing some of my friends in various ways and she just started studying at uni - pretty much exactly what I studied many years ago, which is definitely no coincidence. She is basically leaving me alone though which is a big relief. I have also warned my friends to be careful about interacting with her. I really got the impression with one of my friends in particular that, because this girl finally realised that her friendship was me was over, that she was trying to replace me with my friend (who has a lot of her own difficulties in life right now and REALLY doesn't need that.)

I probably sound quite harsh in this but it was a difficult experience and I don't think I was strong enough. I'm pretty sure she's mentally ill, whether BPD or otherwise, but what I found nastiest was just that she seemed to feel it ok to inflict a horrible, ungrateful, nasty personality on everyone else - especially someone who really tried to help, like me. And that's something outside of BPD - it's how she was choosing to behave. She's a very angry, aggressive, spiteful, bitter, negative person. I think anyone who deals with a friend or acquaintance with such problems needs to maintain rock solid boundaries (something I'm not historically good at, but this experience did help with that - I learned a lot about maintaining boundaries) and be prepared to say "no" constantly. The best thing to do is probably to encourage them to get professional help. And if you've done all you can and it's overwhelming, don't be afraid to remove yourself from their life. You can't save other people.

You're right in saying it's okay to remove yourself from someone's life if it is unhealthy for you and that you can't save other people. I agree!
As for your friend- I'm also not a doctor- but I'm not sure that sounds like BPD overall. The constant mirroring for an identity. I wonder if it is some other type of identity disorder. I have experienced this before- not as extreme as your story, but I had a few female friends stalk me ... mirror me .... to the point where I had to cut them off. I was younger at the time and a wimp and I did it mainly by avoidance. I don't recommend this to anyone. (It worked though!) But I recommend more the way that you handled it! You were up front and honest and I commend you! You took care of yourself. Bravo. You absolutely cannot have a psycho stalker in your life. Period. This stuff can escalate to a very bad place. Please don't feel an ounce of guilt. I'm glad your former friend sought therapy and I wish her well. But again- it is not your job in life to take care of her.
 

SilkRoad

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You're right in saying it's okay to remove yourself from someone's life if it is unhealthy for you and that you can't save other people. I agree!
As for your friend- I'm also not a doctor- but I'm not sure that sounds like BPD overall. The constant mirroring for an identity. I wonder if it is some other type of identity disorder. I have experienced this before- not as extreme as your story, but I had a few female friends stalk me ... mirror me .... to the point where I had to cut them off. I was younger at the time and a wimp and I did it mainly by avoidance. I don't recommend this to anyone. (It worked though!) But I recommend more the way that you handled it! You were up front and honest and I commend you! You took care of yourself. Bravo. You absolutely cannot have a psycho stalker in your life. Period. This stuff can escalate to a very bad place. Please don't feel an ounce of guilt. I'm glad your former friend sought therapy and I wish her well. But again- it is not your job in life to take care of her.

As I understand it, the "constant mirroring for an identity" (as you put it) can be an aspect of BPD. But I totally agree with you, it could be something else. I would say that it seemed like BPD-like behaviour to me, but I didn't exactly want to diagnose her with that (I don't have the right or ability) and I always hoped that as she's fairly young, she would overcome it. I know there are various types of disorders which have to do with unstable identity, which was/is definitely a big part of her issues.

I do feel sorry for her and I'm afraid my post may have sounded kind of judgmental. It just turned into a nasty thing for me to deal with and it was also disappointing because I had really hoped I could make a big difference in her life. (I think I do have slightly co-dependent tendencies/a desire to "save" people, in certain situations.) I do want to emphasize that if I'm judging her (which I probably am somewhat), it's not over whatever the nature of her mental instability, but about her horrible attitude - which just made the whole thing unbearable. She certainly got a rough deal in life to a certain extent, with the dysfunctional family and all, but I know people who have some kind of mental instability and crazy families and they are still the loveliest people you could meet...in large part because they faced up to it and took responsibility.

Do you feel like telling us more about your friend...do you think it's a friendship you'll be able to maintain? I'm quite interested in these types of disorders at this point.
 

Isis

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You are so sweet, [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION], I did not take your post as judgmental at all. There is a point to which one is empathetic and there is another point to which one is self-preserving. We all have baggage and backgrounds and bad memories- some worse than others. But at some point, people who are socially inept to the point of alienating people or making people miserable - have to own up to what they are doing- or at the very least, face the consequences of their actions which mostly amounts to people walking out of their life. Being stalked is unbearable. It's unacceptable. And it's dangerous for you both.

As for my friend, I do not have the guts to tell him what I suspect. :(
 

SilkRoad

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You are so sweet, [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION], I did not take your post as judgmental at all. There is a point to which one is empathetic and there is another point to which one is self-preserving. We all have baggage and backgrounds and bad memories- some worse than others. But at some point, people who are socially inept to the point of alienating people or making people miserable - have to own up to what they are doing- or at the very least, face the consequences of their actions which mostly amounts to people walking out of their life. Being stalked is unbearable. It's unacceptable. And it's dangerous for you both.

As for my friend, I do not have the guts to tell him what I suspect. :(

To be honest I think it was a little easier for me to be forthright with my former friend because I never viewed her as an equal. In fact, one mistake I think I made was that I treated her a little too much as an equal though I didn't view her as one, because she took that as carte blanche to behave horribly. But she made it impossible to view her as an equal, not really because she's much younger (I have friends in different age groups, after all) but because she acted like she wanted to be a dependent and like she had an emotional age of no more than ten.

I think it would have been harder to be tough/forthright if she was my age and someone I respected more, for instance. I didn't say to her at any point that I thought she might have BPD but I did tell her (quite gently at that point) that I thought she was depressed and it would be wise to see a doctor. And she did eventually get some therapy at least, because of that - although she later admitted that she'd lied about some stuff to the therapist, and that she'd lied to me about lying to the therapist. :dry: Hey ho. SO glad I'm out of that situation.

Do you think your friend has some inkling that he behaves unstably? Does he have friends or family, close ones, who you could talk to about your concerns?
 

Santosha

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Abandonement is a BPD sufferers biggest fear.
Anyone have experience with this and can share?
Thanks

Alot of people would say that confronting ones fears is the best way to overcome them. As an enneagram 6, I certainly relate to fear of abandonment. I wonder if those suffering from BPD could actually transcend it by being alone... if this may aid in developing a stronger sense of identity? Just a random thought, I'm not sure if there is much substance to it. But before you get into ways to overcome the disorder, I'd definately consider how serious your friend is about being "saved". I think a common theme with BPD is that they can come across as wanting help, but their ideas on going about this are often different from what might actually help them. It seems to get a bit tricky. Good Luck!
 

Isis

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Alot of people would say that confronting ones fears is the best way to overcome them. As an enneagram 6, I certainly relate to fear of abandonment. I wonder if those suffering from BPD could actually transcend it by being alone... if this may aid in developing a stronger sense of identity? Just a random thought, I'm not sure if there is much substance to it. But before you get into ways to overcome the disorder, I'd definately consider how serious your friend is about being "saved". I think a common theme with BPD is that they can come across as wanting help, but their ideas on going about this are often different from what might actually help them. It seems to get a bit tricky. Good Luck!

thank you. Obviously- we are lay people having this discussion- but I'm not sure if being alone in and of itself can help towards healing per se because I think the way those with BPD push people away, they are in fact alone a lot. I would think that perhaps them forcing themselves to get close to people would help them heal more. I think they have such an intense fear of getting close to people because ultimately they believe everyone is going to leave. I think experiencing closeness where people don't leave AND where they do leave is important because in life- let's face it- we all have had people stick by our side and have others bail on us. What makes them any different?
 

SilkRoad

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thank you. Obviously- we are lay people having this discussion- but I'm not sure if being alone in and of itself can help towards healing per se because I think the way those with BPD push people away, they are in fact alone a lot. I would think that perhaps them forcing themselves to get close to people would help them heal more. I think they have such an intense fear of getting close to people because ultimately they believe everyone is going to leave. I think experiencing closeness where people don't leave AND where they do leave is important because in life- let's face it- we all have had people stick by our side and have others bail on us. What makes them any different?

From my understanding, people with BPD need to find a way to regulate an extreme emotional sensitivity. Otherwise it's push-pull to an extreme/crazy extent. I believe there's a book about BPD called "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" and that's what it's like. I wondered if the girl I dealt with had BPD partly because she obviously had an extreme fear of abandonment but the way she behaved ultimately just made you want to get away from her. She would literally do something like, because I wasn't paying her enough attention (ie. exclusive, undivided, 110% attention), say something totally hateful and grab hold of me, and then when I pushed her off, told her to leave me alone and walked away, she would run after me screaming "DON'T REJECT ME." Trying to say goodbye and hang up the phone, gently (or otherwise, when I realised that gently didn't work) was "rejection". Effectively, it was obvious that she preferred any kind of attention to no attention, and would do anything to get it - so even if I was yelling at her because her nasty behaviour had made me so angry (which didn't happen often, but it happened a few times), that was a lot better than nothing.

Apparently there are also issues with emptiness/lack of identity which can make a BPD sufferer feel as though they're dying/ceasing to exist if the person or people they're fixated on leave - and "leaving" might not even be something drastic like ending the friendship or relationship; it could be saying goodbye and going your separate ways after you've had a coffee.

It just seems like an awful disorder all around. It is awful to have to deal with if you are trying to help them/be there for them, if they have not gotten to a place where they can regulate their emotions, and it is clearly hell inside their heads. And in the more extreme cases they are definitely at high risk for self-harming or suicide. Which is why, if you feel your friend is suffering from this or something similar, it is very wise to at least start by speaking to close family or friends, and maybe encouraging them to seek help.
 
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To be honest I think it was a little easier for me to be forthright with my former friend because I never viewed her as an equal. In fact, one mistake I think I made was that I treated her a little too much as an equal though I didn't view her as one, because she took that as carte blanche to behave horribly. But she made it impossible to view her as an equal, not really because she's much younger (I have friends in different age groups, after all) but because she acted like she wanted to be a dependent and like she had an emotional age of no more than ten.
Man. Yeah.

I had to cut off a particular person. When I changed my perspective on our 'roles' and viewed us as 'unequal,' it was a lot easier to do because the imbalance was staring me in the face. In that light, we weren't 'friends' so much as we were 'sponsor/sponsee.'
 

SilkRoad

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Man. Yeah.

I had to cut off a particular person. When I changed my perspective on our 'roles' and viewed us as 'unequal,' it was a lot easier to do because the imbalance was staring me in the face. In that light, we weren't 'friends' so much as we were 'sponsor/sponsee.'

Yeah, that sounds about right. In my case, at best I was a "mentor" for this girl. When I tried to treat her as an equal and a friend - at the outset, I thought that might be a good idea to help her mature a bit - it always backfired big time in one way or another. I think I realised I needed to cut her off when I became aware that basically what I was doing was the work of a social worker and a psychologist - without me being properly qualified, and without getting paid for it. :dry: I also used to feel bad for her, the obvious pain she was going through, but when I reached the stage when I just felt angry and nauseous when I had to deal with her, it was well time to go.

I'd like to think I helped her mature a bit but it really might have been a waste of time in that respect. But it was a good learning experience for me with what I can and can't handle, and with having much stronger boundaries. Of course I still kind of hope that somehow she can get to a place where she isn't miserable and making the people around her miserable, though I no longer want to be involved in any way.
 

SilkRoad

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Out of interest, this is from a review of "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", and it sounds almost exactly like my interactions with the abovementioned girl, so much of the time. Although I was NOT in a "relationship" with her - but I suspect she thought I was! (while also treating me like the mom/role model/etc.)

"But, gradually, a tone of jealously addictive clinging emerges, as you feel this person starting to seek your constant attention and reassurance. "Do I look good enough?" they ask. "Am I smart enough?" You feel pressured to play an increasingly central emotional role in this person's life, as they seem engaged in a desperate attempt to fill a hole in themselves - a lack of self-esteem - with your approval. You sense a constant need to prove yourself, as you are subjected to silly emotional tests and games designed to confirm your continued validation. Yet, oddly, when you do praise them, they brush it suspiciously or distrustfully aside, refusing to accept their good qualities, explaining them away. They may describe feeling that they are "faking it", worrying that they will be "found out" as a fraud, and even extending into self-hate. They may even start to become controlling, trying to keep you from seeing other friends."
 

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My ex-fiancée (from 20 years ago) definitely had borderline personality disorder. I think maintaining a relationship with someone with BPD takes an real commitment to maintaining boundaries, being consistent and tolerating outbursts. There are some helpful books like Stop Walking on Eggshells that I wish I had had at the time.

People with BPD are absolutely worthy of compassion and relationships, but you'll have to make the call whether you have the time, energy and discipline to invest in the relationship. The relationship drama can be pretty intense, and staying vigilant about boundaries gets tiring over time.

Thankfully, there are some newer therapies that make BPD more treatable today than it was in the past.
 

Isis

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To be honest I think it was a little easier for me to be forthright with my former friend because I never viewed her as an equal. In fact, one mistake I think I made was that I treated her a little too much as an equal though I didn't view her as one, because she took that as carte blanche to behave horribly. But she made it impossible to view her as an equal, not really because she's much younger (I have friends in different age groups, after all) but because she acted like she wanted to be a dependent and like she had an emotional age of no more than ten.

I think it would have been harder to be tough/forthright if she was my age and someone I respected more, for instance. I didn't say to her at any point that I thought she might have BPD but I did tell her (quite gently at that point) that I thought she was depressed and it would be wise to see a doctor. And she did eventually get some therapy at least, because of that - although she later admitted that she'd lied about some stuff to the therapist, and that she'd lied to me about lying to the therapist. :dry: Hey ho. SO glad I'm out of that situation.

Do you think your friend has some inkling that he behaves unstably? Does he have friends or family, close ones, who you could talk to about your concerns?

I do see the BPD symptoms in your friend and it seems she also has depression or anxiety or something in addition. You so did the right thing- and you are so empathetic- I commend you.

I believe he has an inkling that he struggles with emotions and relationships. But I have heard him place blame elsewhere and well- there are two sides to every story. I would be curious to hear the other stories of people in his life.

I do think it needs to be addressed. I guess I need to contemplate how best to do that. If anything- I would love just for him to consider that it is a possibility that he has BPD- and that he should get it checked out. And next best scenario is he being completely honest with the professionals so they can do a fair assessment and treatment option and also not feel badly at all about this- because it is not his fault. I know causes can be genetic .... trauma during critical development stages or combination of both. But I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have a critical attachment period in my very very young life not to have been met properly and what that would do to my psyche. I seriously feel for people who suffer with this- it is heavy stuff to carry around.

Thanks so much again for your feedback and sharing your experience with it!
 
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