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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    To be honest I still don't know what to think about this. I mean, the fall was not bad and there were no scrapes or cuts, and the mother rushed to the child and was holding her lovingly. I'm quite sure if the child was really hurt or if it was an emotional hurt, the mother would have reacted differently. Maybe this is a modern parenting strategy or something.
    Yeah, I overgeneralized.

    Not that the mother's approach wasn't TERRIBLE AND WRONG AND DAMAGING, and not that it didn't work, but the part where the child just seemingly looked all confused as if her pain wasn't justified was what got to me.

    There are a few ways to 'learn' that a given pain isn't 'justified.' One is to deny the problem in a pollyanna sort of way, an optimism bordering on naivete. My preferred approach is to to learn through experience that, oh, getting a lil' scrape isn't so bad--and that's a tactic that people use to get over fear and anxiety in general.

    This is a very good point. It's how we naturally make sense of the world. Even having words at all is a kind of 'labeling'.

    The bolded is exactly what I was trying to get at! It's an issue that's hardly ever addressed. In regard to mental illness especially, maybe everyone is 'screwed up' in some way. Labeling something with a name helps people understand it, but once the problem is spotted as real, maybe it's better to just let go of the labeling altogether and start looking at how we can help you as a person.
    I think that terminology has helped me in some ways, but not in others.

    Shit's obviously all fucked up when, say, you're burning your candle at both ends for weeks without feeling the least bit tired and feeling as though you don't need sleep, then, blammo, crash. That obviously isn't natural. That's a problem that kinda needs fixed, and labels help.

    But to this day, I wind up wondering whether a few days' worth of a glum mood is a depressive episode, or if moments of grandeur are a manic phase. When the experience is so internal and personal, at times the terms actually seem to confuse our understanding of the world and ourselves.
    That's what I keep wondering too. Personally I don't think medication is the right approach. I think it helps, but there must be better, more natural ways to achieve long-term effects.
    I'd love more natural ways to deal with it all. For the most part, I've been sticking with medications that have been around for decades--that have some history behind them and so their side effects are more well-known. (Those older medications happen to work for me, thank God.)
    Though I'm not an expert on the subject, I know some things. To throw a thought out there--one thing that most people don't realize is that, say, typical antidepressants just serve to fix existing emitters and receptors; that typically, they won't do a damn thing for 'normies.'

    One natural way to deal with it is psychotherapy, which is universally recommended alongside medication.

    I'll also throw in the following--given my experiences, I realize why people might get themselves into situations where they're hooked on illegal or dangerous drugs.

  2. #12
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I'd much rather have half-educated, over named, over prescribed, and quick-to-label doctors and psychs than I would the way things used to be.. when people just rolled their eyes and down-played the importance of illness of all sorts. If you couldn't see it, or understand it, it clearly wasn't there.

    Without a name, it might as well not exist. People are not "slow", "off", "crazy".. They're mentally retarded, bipolar, and schizophrenic.. These names are precise determinations. Alzheimer's is NOT a normal part of aging. Not all old people lose their personality and it isn't random that they're forgetting things at an alarming rate. There's a reason that woman is sticking her head in the fridge and having emotional outbursts.. She isn't just some crazy woman that needs to be locked away until she's better. There's a reason that black guy isn't shaving his beard like the rest of the men, he isn't getting special treatment because of his race. Depression is a real, and clinical, condition that can be identified and treated. He isn't some whiny, pathetic dude that *thinks* he has it rough. We're no longer just telling people to man up and shut up about everything, and I find that a good thing.

    We're not going to be perfect about everything, by far. That's why we have things like the autism epidemic where suddenly everything under the sun causes the condition, and EVERY child can be said to have ADD and ADHD, which clutters things up and makes it more difficult for those whom really do have those conditions because now people are so desensitized to the issues that they roll their eyes when they hear it. Yes, we have people over prescribing medicines and throwing antibiotics out there like its candy and creating super bugs in the process. We have people who need help with things like obesity and depression getting lots of medicines and not enough emphasis on recreation, exercise, healthy balanced diets, and one-on-one quality therapy and counseling. We're a pop-a-pill generation, and while I feel like that is starting to taper off and it has hit its peak, those remnants will be there. Everyone's a victim now-a-days, you just need to figure out how.

    And still, I'd prefer it that way to people getting no treatment at all, insane asylums holding perfectly healthy people, and children being spanked, yelled at, and feeling down on themselves because they cannot figure out how the other kids sit still and pay attention.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Stigma is a very real thing, so is depression. But people want to act like neither exists, i don't know what this thread is about so i'm just gonna say my piece and be gone.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #14
    Bunnies & Rainbow Socks Kayness's Avatar
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    I can kind of relate to what you're saying. But the examples in my life that I can think of right now are....stuff like...you know...when we were teenagers my dad made such a big deal that we DO NOT get tattooes because he still has this belief that tattooes are for gangsters, bikers and criminals or something. It ironically piqued my interest in it (which I will never get anyway because I don't trust myself to NOT get bored of it a few years later).

    anyway yeah my point is that I can relate to that whole thing about making a big deal out of something and it backfires or became a self-fulling prophecy.
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  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    To get super-specific about the "how to respond to children's feelings/pain" thing (even though I know it was being used as a metaphor for a larger issue): I don't love either option described in the OP. It wouldn't even occur to me to tell a child that something "didn't hurt." How the hell should I know if it hurts? Only they know that. And I also don't feel the need to hover and make a huge deal out of every little bump and scrape. My response when my children were small depended on the severity of the injury. Usually I didn't react at all, unless the child reacted, and then I would validate that reaction and encourage them to get up and move on. "Ouch! I bet that sucked. Let's play with these Legos."

    To address the larger issue, though, I don't think labeling something makes it so, and I don't think the parents' reaction/behavior entirely shapes a child's personality or their illness/wellness profile. They are who they are, they struggle with whatever they're going to struggle with, whether or not the parents recognize it. For example, even though his dad and I share the philosophy of not making a big deal out of things, our son was still diagnosed with autism at the age of 3 and has benefitted greatly from having that "label" and the services that come with it.

  6. #16
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    To get super-specific about the "how to respond to children's feelings/pain" thing (even though I know it was being used as a metaphor for a larger issue): I don't love either option described in the OP. It wouldn't even occur to me to tell a child that something "didn't hurt." How the hell should I know if it hurts? Only they know that. And I also don't feel the need to hover and make a huge deal out of every little bump and scrape. My response when my children were small depended on the severity of the injury. Usually I didn't react at all, unless the child reacted, and then I would validate that reaction and encourage them to get up and move on. "Ouch! I bet that sucked. Let's play with these Legos."

    To address the larger issue, though, I don't think labeling something makes it so, and I don't think the parents' reaction/behavior entirely shapes a child's personality or their illness/wellness profile. They are who they are, they struggle with whatever they're going to struggle with, whether or not the parents recognize it. For example, even though his dad and I share the philosophy of not making a big deal out of things, our son was still diagnosed with autism at the age of 3 and has benefitted greatly from having that "label" and the services that come with it.

  7. #17
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I echo Ivy, on having a label is sometimes a good thing, I was dxed developmental delayed at 18 months and i benefitted greatly from the interventions that were avalaiable to me and than in elementary school i ws dxed with written expressive disorder. I have a hard time getting my thoughts on paper in a coherent manner, so i was allowed to take exams orally because I got the stuff i just couldn't regurigiatate it except orally. and I've been dxed schizoaffective with out the label i'd probably be worse off today than i was a year ago in stead of starting out with a gaf* of 20 and now my average gaf is between 50-60 not the best, but its better. so I don't act like a fucking victim, in fact i'd like to be average.

    gaf is global assesment of functioning, or how well you function day to day. http://depts.washington.edu/washinst...AF%20Index.htm
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #18
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    @kyuuei Great post! I agree that we are definitely getting better. I really hope the whole pill-popping thing is a yoyo effect where we go from denial to overdiagnosis, before a better balance can be achieved. Totally agree about desensitization. Every kid has ADHD now, and in this case I think labeling can be really harmful, as illustrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

    @Ivy and @prplchknz Thank you for sharing your insight. It's very helpful in my understanding of the bigger picture

    @Viridian I hope this thread doesn't come off sounding like I'm denying that these conditions are real, because I'm not

    Let me clarify: I know mental illness and all these other conditions are real -- as real as broken bones or diabetes. I'm not suggesting that we should just gloss over them and pretend they don't exist and they will just go away by themselves. In most cases, I agree that "labels" are very useful and actually help people. I'm not in any way trying to trivialize anything of these illnesses or conditions.

    To clarify further, maybe I should share what motivated the topic in the first place. I think my boyfriend is suffering from something. I don't know what -- depression? bipolar disorder? anxiety disorder? SAD? I have tried to suggest getting help, but he has always refused, saying that no one knows anything and that no one can help him. I think he thinks he can handle it himself, because he has 'up' periods where he feels great. The problem is, I don't know if he can handle it himself. Right now he is in a postgraduate program where he has no friends or family nearby. He's been isolating himself, and I feel that his condition -- whatever it is -- is getting worse. I've looked up some information online and also tried to locate local therapists for him but I'm not sure if I should try to 'convince' him to seek help at this stage. He is not in the greatest situation in life and he is under a real lot of stress. I'm not physically there to help him out so I'm very, very worried. By giving something a name you give it power, but it may be the only way to deal with it. I don't really know if adding a "condition" to what he has to worry about right now will actually help or do more harm. I didn't want to make it about this specific situation, but just wanted to explore more ideas about the effects of 'labeling' to gain more perspective.
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  9. #19
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Not that the mother's approach wasn't TERRIBLE AND WRONG AND DAMAGING, and not that it didn't work, but the part where the child just seemingly looked all confused as if her pain wasn't justified was what got to me.

    There are a few ways to 'learn' that a given pain isn't 'justified.' One is to deny the problem in a pollyanna sort of way, an optimism bordering on naivete. My preferred approach is to to learn through experience that, oh, getting a lil' scrape isn't so bad--and that's a tactic that people use to get over fear and anxiety in general.
    Yeah, something 'bothered' me about the situation as well, but I didn't know what or why. A lot of people whose parents said "Just get over it" to any problem said it helped them build inner strength. So I don't know where I stand really...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    To get super-specific about the "how to respond to children's feelings/pain" thing (even though I know it was being used as a metaphor for a larger issue): I don't love either option described in the OP. It wouldn't even occur to me to tell a child that something "didn't hurt." How the hell should I know if it hurts? Only they know that. And I also don't feel the need to hover and make a huge deal out of every little bump and scrape. My response when my children were small depended on the severity of the injury. Usually I didn't react at all, unless the child reacted, and then I would validate that reaction and encourage them to get up and move on. "Ouch! I bet that sucked. Let's play with these Legos."
    Seems like a good response. Thanks! I'll keep this in mind when (and if) I have kids of my own.

    The thing is, there are incidents in my childhood that I would have preferred people to 'gloss over' a bit and not make a big deal out of, and these were instances where people were trying to help. It made me feel helpless. Then again, I'm aware of the thin line between "not making a big deal out of something" and "not validating someone's feelings"...


    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    But to this day, I wind up wondering whether a few days' worth of a glum mood is a depressive episode, or if moments of grandeur are a manic phase. When the experience is so internal and personal, at times the terms actually seem to confuse our understanding of the world and ourselves.
    This is related to what I'm concerned about with my boyfriend as well. I would hate to have him think that his 'ups' are not really 'ups' but a psychological effect from mood swings and things like that.


    @Kayness Yeah, in other things not related to illness, making a big deal out of something can blow the thing way out of proportion. There are things that I don't eat now because people made a big deal out of me not eating them when I was younger. All the arguments about how much I hate something and how I will never eat it somehow reinforces the fact in my mind, and now I'm stuck on not eating it or something...
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