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  1. #41
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's not my interpretation. "Loco" was a playful pun on your "loci". I don't judge you unfair, just that your complaint seemed unrealistic. Most people cannot communicate as you do or really understand you without a good deal of effort. Whereas you can understand regular speech. Therefore, the onus is on you to communicate clearly, (in order to share your considerable gifts), rather than invent your own rules and demand that others understand them. (I accept that in the case of severe autists, this is not the case.)

    "Route", "rote" or "routine"?
    Why couldn't you explain that to him? You just explained it to me.

    This reminds me of Chris Langan's story as relayed by Malcolm Gladwell's in Outliers..
    Gladwell draws some interesting conclusions.
    I don't know much about him either so I'm not in a position to take sides.
    I just think it was patronising of the federal appeals court to suggest that his autism meant he was incapable of intent. And that it was ironic for you to suggest that he was framed on account of his disability, when, if anything, there was a suggestion that they would have been more lenient if it had been admissible.

    If he wasn't involved in criminal damage, of course, it was unfair that he was imprisoned. But it's hardly the first miscarriage of justice in US history, and won't be the last. As you say, it's not really relevant.
    I saw Ahtisaari in television, during the Namibia talks.
    He said to the participants in the conflict: Your strength is weakness. Give up.
    Namibia became independent.
    The Strength of Israel: Lobby in Washington. Obstacle to peace.
    Incapability of intent is a blessing.

    Rote is route. Therefore routine.
    A road. Something known.

    Rote learning is to learn by repetition.
    Einstein said in an interview he could not cram to exams.
    He had to go behind the rule to understand. It made him slow.
    Gladwell said Einstein had an IQ of 150. It is not possible.
    To have an IQ of 150 you have to go by rote.

    Autists do not drive on the wrong side of the road. Patronising thinking.

  2. #42
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I saw Ahtisaari in television, during the Namibia talks.
    He said to the participants in the conflict: Your strength is weakness. Give up.
    Namibia became independent.
    The Strength of Israel: Lobby in Washington. Obstacle to peace.
    Incapability of intent is a blessing.

    Rote is route. Therefore routine.
    A road. Something known.

    Rote learning is to learn by repetition.
    Einstein said in an interview he could not cram to exams.
    He had to go behind the rule to understand. It made him slow.
    Gladwell said Einstein had an IQ of 150. It is not possible.
    To have an IQ of 150 you have to go by rote.

    Autists do not drive on the wrong side of the road. Patronising thinking.
    You are not constructing a very compelling case.

    Attraction to repetition and sameness is a feature of autism, is it not?

    People diagnosed with Asperger's usually have above average IQ.
    It's entirely possible that Einstein had an IQ of 150. IQ tests do not measure rote-learning ability.
    It's entirely possible Einstein wasn't autistic (I see no good reason to believe he was).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #43
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    You know what they say: you've met one autistic person, you've met... one autistic person.

    My autistic son has, among many other more substantial strengths, a pretty impressive skill for memorizing and regurgitating facts. It's hard to know exactly how good because of his opacity, but we know he's VERY good at rote learning under certain circumstances (e.g. when it interests him). At 4 he taught himself the sign language alphabet and started communicating with it. We thought he learned it at school, school thought he learned it at home. Turns out he learned it on a website he sometimes played on. Now at 7 he's also a fantastic speller, and he has a pretty amazing (I suspect eidetic) memory for certain things. It only works when it's about a topic he can "go behind," as you say, wildcat. When he has a natural affinity for the topic, there's a framework for the facts to adhere to. Otherwise, there is no making him learn- he doesn't seem capable of remembering things when he isn't internally motivated. Maybe there's a pattern he grasps on these topics that interest him, that he doesn't grasp otherwise. I don't really know, and he can't tell us (yet).

    I sometimes suspect he actually has the ability to learn by rote outside those subjects of special interest to him, but lacks the mirroring ability to understand why it might be necessary/important for him to do so. In any case, he certainly has the ability. In his case the saying is true: "Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire."

  4. #44
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You are not constructing a very compelling case.

    Attraction to repetition and sameness is a feature of autism, is it not?

    People diagnosed with Asperger's usually have above average IQ.
    It's entirely possible that Einstein had an IQ of 150. IQ tests do not measure rote-learning ability.
    It's entirely possible Einstein wasn't autistic (I see no good reason to believe he was).
    Exactly.
    I have no case. I do not want to have a case.
    Autism: A case resolved. Not at all.
    And they say we autists do not use irony. He he.

    Yes. Aspies tend to have above-average IQs.
    Sons and daughters of the bourgeoisie.

    I am unsure about rote learning.
    Children learn to speak by rote? Einstein learned to speak when he was four.
    It is not uncommon with autists.
    Einstein had a son who was schizophrenic. Schizophrenia and autism are genetically related.
    He said: Speak slowly to me. I understand slowly.

    Einstein may have had an average IQ of his social class. It is 125 - 129.
    IQ is a kind of social class thing.
    With all his bourgeoisie breeding, he could not have had an IQ of 150. He was a way too slow.
    His was the best mind in the 20th Century.

    Attraction to repetition and sameness is a feature of autism. No objection.

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You know what they say: you've met one autistic person, you've met... one autistic person.

    My autistic son has, among many other more substantial strengths, a pretty impressive skill for memorizing and regurgitating facts. It's hard to know exactly how good because of his opacity, but we know he's VERY good at rote learning under certain circumstances (e.g. when it interests him). At 4 he taught himself the sign language alphabet and started communicating with it. We thought he learned it at school, school thought he learned it at home. Turns out he learned it on a website he sometimes played on. Now at 7 he's also a fantastic speller, and he has a pretty amazing (I suspect eidetic) memory for certain things. It only works when it's about a topic he can "go behind," as you say, wildcat. When he has a natural affinity for the topic, there's a framework for the facts to adhere to. Otherwise, there is no making him learn- he doesn't seem capable of remembering things when he isn't internally motivated. Maybe there's a pattern he grasps on these topics that interest him, that he doesn't grasp otherwise. I don't really know, and he can't tell us (yet).

    I sometimes suspect he actually has the ability to learn by rote outside those subjects of special interest to him, but lacks the mirroring ability to understand why it might be necessary/important for him to do so. In any case, he certainly has the ability. In his case the saying is true: "Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire."
    A very good post. As always, Ivy.
    Experience is first hand.

    When I studied history in Helsinki, I was under an attack.
    I turned to a famous scholar. It did not matter that he was a Marxist. He was different.
    His wife was the Professor of Literature. A daughter of a famous poet.
    He said: My wife tells me you are a good poet. History however is a science.

    Your son did not learn the sign alphabet at school or at home. He learned the pattern by himself.
    This is what I wanted to say.
    Thank you, Ivy.

    Rote does play a part. It is second hand.
    The pattern is behind the topic.
    What is behind the topic does not rote.

    Light the fire. The rest is a child's game.

  6. #46
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You know what they say: you've met one autistic person, you've met... one autistic person.

    My autistic son has, among many other more substantial strengths, a pretty impressive skill for memorizing and regurgitating facts. It's hard to know exactly how good because of his opacity, but we know he's VERY good at rote learning under certain circumstances (e.g. when it interests him). At 4 he taught himself the sign language alphabet and started communicating with it. We thought he learned it at school, school thought he learned it at home. Turns out he learned it on a website he sometimes played on. Now at 7 he's also a fantastic speller, and he has a pretty amazing (I suspect eidetic) memory for certain things. It only works when it's about a topic he can "go behind," as you say, wildcat. When he has a natural affinity for the topic, there's a framework for the facts to adhere to. Otherwise, there is no making him learn- he doesn't seem capable of remembering things when he isn't internally motivated. Maybe there's a pattern he grasps on these topics that interest him, that he doesn't grasp otherwise. I don't really know, and he can't tell us (yet).

    I sometimes suspect he actually has the ability to learn by rote outside those subjects of special interest to him, but lacks the mirroring ability to understand why it might be necessary/important for him to do so. In any case, he certainly has the ability. In his case the saying is true: "Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire."
    A very good post. As always, Ivy.
    Experience is first hand.

    When I studied history in Helsinki, I was under an attack.
    I turned to a famous scholar. It did not matter that he was a Marxist. He was different.
    His wife was the Professor of Literature. A daughter of a famous poet.
    He said: My wife tells me you are a good poet. History however is a science.

    Your son did not learn the sign alphabet at school or at home. He learned the pattern by himself.
    This is what I wanted to say.
    Thank you, Ivy.

    Rote does play a part. It is second hand.
    The pattern is behind the topic.
    What is behind the topic does not rote.

    Light the fire. The rest is a child's game.

  7. #47
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i spent 6 months interning as a guidance counselor at a middle school once, a few years ago. it wasn't long before i learned that the main problem of a guidance counselor is not providing students with guidance - but instead juggling the triangle created between the student, the parent, and the administration. the parent wants to feel like their student is in an institution that cares about their student, the administration wants to feel like tests scores will be good so they keep getting the money they need to run the school, and the student just wants to do whatever they feel like doing at the moment. no one is looking at the other person clearly; they are all looking at the other person with their other intentions in mind. each party wants to make the others feel like they are getting what they want, but they are not really interested in giving it to them. each has good intentions. each feels like something else is most important.

    i wonder how often this happens in life. i wonder how often this happens with autism. the neurotypical wants to engage with the autist like they would engage with a neurotypical. the autist wants to engage in whatever interests them. they miss one another. the neurotypical thinks they want "communication"; the neurotypical actually wants neurotypical communication. their priorities seem different because their perspectives are different.

    but everyone ultimately wants love and fairness and acceptance and understanding and freedom to pursue whatever impassions them. i think that people need to be reminded of this over and over and over. we miscommunicate with each other when we forget how we are the same. sometimes communication as an objective is overrated... we have to remember why we communicate. the goal is never communication itself.

  8. #48
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i spent 6 months interning as a guidance counselor at a middle school once, a few years ago. it wasn't long before i learned that the main problem of a guidance counselor is not providing students with guidance - but instead juggling the triangle created between the student, the parent, and the administration. the parent wants to feel like their student is in an institution that cares about their student, the administration wants to feel like tests scores will be good so they keep getting the money they need to run the school, and the student just wants to do whatever they feel like doing at the moment. no one is looking at the other person clearly; they are all looking at the other person with their other intentions in mind. each party wants to make the others feel like they are getting what they want, but they are not really interested in giving it to them. each has good intentions. each feels like something else is most important.

    i wonder how often this happens in life. i wonder how often this happens with autism. the neurotypical wants to engage with the autist like they would engage with a neurotypical. the autist wants to engage in whatever interests them. they miss one another. the neurotypical thinks they want "communication"; the neurotypical actually wants neurotypical communication. their priorities seem different because their perspectives are different.

    but everyone ultimately wants love and fairness and acceptance and understanding and freedom to pursue whatever impassions them. i think that people need to be reminded of this over and over and over. we miscommunicate with each other when we forget how we are the same. sometimes communication as an objective is overrated... we have to remember why we communicate. the goal is never communication itself.
    This seems to me to be sensible and accurate.

    And we have the illusion that we understand one another. And we can move from illusion to reality in empathy training. But we all have the illusionn we don't need empathy training and so we keep the illusion we understand one another.

  9. #49
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i spent 6 months interning as a guidance counselor at a middle school once, a few years ago. it wasn't long before i learned that the main problem of a guidance counselor is not providing students with guidance - but instead juggling the triangle created between the student, the parent, and the administration. the parent wants to feel like their student is in an institution that cares about their student, the administration wants to feel like tests scores will be good so they keep getting the money they need to run the school, and the student just wants to do whatever they feel like doing at the moment. no one is looking at the other person clearly; they are all looking at the other person with their other intentions in mind. each party wants to make the others feel like they are getting what they want, but they are not really interested in giving it to them. each has good intentions. each feels like something else is most important.

    i wonder how often this happens in life. i wonder how often this happens with autism. the neurotypical wants to engage with the autist like they would engage with a neurotypical. the autist wants to engage in whatever interests them. they miss one another. the neurotypical thinks they want "communication"; the neurotypical actually wants neurotypical communication. their priorities seem different because their perspectives are different.

    but everyone ultimately wants love and fairness and acceptance and understanding and freedom to pursue whatever impassions them. i think that people need to be reminded of this over and over and over. we miscommunicate with each other when we forget how we are the same. sometimes communication as an objective is overrated... we have to remember why we communicate. the goal is never communication itself.




    I met a guidance counselor. He knew his job.
    The school had three levels. The lower level, the middle level and the upper level.
    I said: I want to enter the upper level.
    He did not say: You have not passed the lower level.

    He saved me two years out of three.
    Later I met student counselors who did the opposite.

    Why do the students tarry?
    It is not the students.

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