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  1. #31
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    This is not strictly true, it is a spectrum hence the term ASD.
    The further you go along the spectrum the more severe the cases are considered (the more life affecting) and the less verbal communication/interaction.

    To only consider verbal communication as language/communication is an error imo, think Amanda baggs.
    It is not a problem of language.
    Is it a problem of communication?
    If it is a problem of communication, it does not concern the autist.
    It is your problem.

  2. #32
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    It is not a problem of language.
    Is it a problem of communication?
    If it is a problem of communication, it does not concern the autist.
    It is your problem.
    Language and communication are part of it to varying degrees with varying individuals. It's not so black and white. What the majority of nuerotypical people believe to be communication does not cover all communication or for that matter language.

    I agree to a point, there is a lot of misconception regarding persons with asd, the majoirty believe if the autistic individual 'can not communicate with me on my terms and in my form of communication then they are not communicating' this of course is total nonsense.

    Just because we can not see into someones mind who presents as unable to communicate on societies terms, does not mean that they do not communicate or indeed think on many levels... often levels of great complexity and beauty.

    In this society at large loses out through it's own ignorance.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #33
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Language and communication are part of it to varying degrees with varying individuals. It's not so black and white. What the majority of nuerotypical people believe to be communication does not cover all communication or for that matter language.

    I agree to a point, there is a lot of misconception regarding persons with asd, the majoirty believe if the autistic individual 'can not communicate with me on my terms and in my form of communication then they are not communicating' this of course is total nonsense.

    Just because we can not see into someones mind who presents as unable to communicate on societies terms, does not mean that they do not communicate or indeed think on many levels... often levels of great complexity and beauty.

    In this society at large loses out through it's own ignorance.
    Yes. This is what I wanted to say. You say it so much better.

  4. #34
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    If it is a problem of communication, it does not concern the autist.
    It is your problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Communication is a two-way street.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    A history of an airplane accident. An analogy.
    An airplane is about to land. The person who directs the traffic at the airport says to the pilot:
    - Turn right.
    The pilot turns left. The airplane crashes.
    Did the pilot follow the order?
    He did.
    His 'left' corresponded the 'right' of the director of the traffic.
    The moral of the story: don't let autists operate vehicles - they will drive on the wrong side of the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I chose Cottrell because it is a standard case not only of autism per se, but of the the habitual confrontation with authority.

    When I was twelve years old, a policeman came to our house. He said to my parents: Your son is a leader of a gang.
    I was repeatedly accused of plagiarism in school.

    Then I started to read these autists' histories.
    Cottrell was framed.
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...e-vacated.html
    The three-judge panel in February had upheld Cottrell's 2005 convictions on conspiracy and seven counts of arson and the 100-month sentence he was given. But in an unpublished opinion released Tuesday, the panel "amended" its February ruling. The judges said the trial court's exclusion of expert testimony about Cottrell's affliction with Asperger's syndrome denied him an opportunity to demonstrate that he couldn't have had specific intent in aiding and abetting the destruction.
    It seems Cottrell was fluent in non-verbal communication of a particularly anti-social kind.
    Do you think the bolded claim fair?

    I don't think his autism should have been a factor in the ruling at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #35
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The moral of the story: don't let autists operate vehicles - they will drive on the wrong side of the road.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...e-vacated.html
    It seems Cottrell was fluent in non-verbal communication of a particularly anti-social kind.
    Do you think the bolded claim fair?

    I don't think his autism should have been a factor in the ruling at all.
    'I' is the 'you' of the other party.
    'Left' is the 'right' of the other party.
    'East' is the 'west' of the other party.
    The other party does not loci.

    The autists do not confuse between I and you, left and right, or east and west.
    They know the other party does not loci.

    That said, I confess I never learned to drive a car or a boat.
    Whenever I wanted to turn to the right, the car or the boat turned to the left.
    Is it because I am spatially confused?
    No.

    Do you think the bolded does claim fair?
    It is not my bolded.

  6. #36
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Yeah a lot of people mess that up. There really is no right or left. They are constructs and they don't always work well.

    This is why on ships they use port and starboard. These don't really pertain to a direction - they pertain to a part of the ship. The red side and the green side. (sucks if you're colorblind, though)

    This is actually in part where the stoplight originated from. If two ships are on intersecting courses, they don't think about left or right. There really is no 'right of way' on the sea. The general rule is if you can see the other ships red light, you let them go in front and go around behind them. If you see their green light, you stand on with caution, and they are supposed to give way. This is never completely a rule though. Some times they can't see you. Some times the lights go out.

    Powered ships give way to sail ships. Small ships give way to big ones. But ultimately there is no left or right.

  7. #37
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    'I' is the 'you' of the other party.
    'Left' is the 'right' of the other party.
    'East' is the 'west' of the other party.
    The other party does not loci.

    The autists do not confuse between I and you, left and right, or east and west.
    They know the other party does not loci.

    That said, I confess I never learned to drive a car or a boat.
    Whenever I wanted to turn to the right, the car or the boat turned to the left.
    Is it because I am spatially confused?
    No.
    No. It's because you're loco.
    j/k
    The thing is, wileycat, you know how to samba, you just prefer to do your own wee dance and then complain that other people don't know the steps. That's...your prerogative. But you're just as guilty of whatever "-ism" it is that you're accusing neurotypicals of as they are.
    Boring as conventions may be, they are a necessary evil if we are going to make any kind of sense of each other/the world. Sometimes we need arbitrary left/right labels if we are going to communicate meaningfully (or, at all).

    If I misunderstand you, now would be a good time for plain speech.
    Do you think the bolded does claim fair?
    It is not my bolded.
    I do not. I thought I made that clear...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #38
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    No. It's because you're loco.
    j/k
    The thing is, wileycat, you know how to samba, you just prefer to do your own wee dance and then complain that other people don't know the steps. That's...your prerogative. But you're just as guilty of whatever "-ism" it is that you're accusing neurotypicals of as they are.
    Boring as conventions may be, they are a necessary evil if we are going to make any kind of sense of each other/the world. Sometimes we need arbitrary left/right labels if we are going to communicate meaningfully (or, at all).

    If I misunderstand you, now would be a good time for plain speech.
    I do not. I thought I made that clear...
    You do misunderstand me. My bad.

    PLAIN SPEECH

    I knew you did not think your bolded claims fair. You did make that perfectly clear.
    Your interpretation: wildcat is loco and he is not fair.
    I only wanted to check, to be on the safe side of the road.
    I have a high regard for neurotypicals.

    And I am not accusing neurotypicals for misunderstanding autists.
    What I wanted to say is misunderstanding is a two way street, always.
    It is not that only neurotypicals misunderstand autists. Autists also misunderstand neurotypicals.
    It is therefore we cannot answer to their route questions at all. We do not engage in route learning.

    There are many creative people among the neurotypicals.
    Also the neurotypicals who are not so creative, are very much needed in society.
    They have a gift of organization and discipline we autists cannot dream of.
    This is what I have always said. I have been explicitly fair.

    We have a problem in school. That's what caught me in the eye when I read about Cottrell.
    The thing is we hardly ever pass the entry examination (= a route examination) to school. We need extreme preparation.
    We are so bad the teachers assume an extreme dislike for us in the very beginning should we enter any route examination.. They thing we are disorganized and loco. I have told this before and it seems I have to tell it again. Please read:

    When I had passed my graduation exams in a subject x I went to see the Professor.
    I was not motivated to see him. The subject x was not my mainline study at all.
    However, my relatives pushed me to get the paper.
    The Professor said: 'Yes, you have passed the Laudatur exams. It is all-clear but there is one thing. You are not enrolled.
    You had no right to study here. We did not notice you never entered the entry examination to the school.
    It is highly irregular, but we can arrange it for you to enter the entry examination now.'
    I said no.
    He destroyed all my papers.
    I said no because I could not have passed the entry examination!
    He did not know it. Could I have explain it to him?
    Of course not.
    The route questions are impossible to answer.

    Back to Cottrell. I do not know much of him. I know what I read in the Wikipedia.
    Hawking was on his side. You are not. Why?
    Hawking was in the wrong?

    It is not about Cottrell.

  9. #39
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    You do misunderstand me. My bad.

    PLAIN SPEECH

    I knew you did not think your bolded claims fair. You did make that perfectly clear.
    Your interpretation: wildcat is loco and he is not fair.
    That's not my interpretation. "Loco" was a playful pun on your "loci". I don't judge you unfair, just that your complaint seemed unrealistic. Most people cannot communicate as you do or really understand you without a good deal of effort. Whereas you can understand regular speech. Therefore, the onus is on you to communicate clearly, (in order to share your considerable gifts), rather than invent your own rules and demand that others understand them. (I accept that in the case of severe autists, this is not the case.)

    I only wanted to check, to be on the safe side of the road.
    I have a high regard for neurotypicals.

    And I am not accusing neurotypicals for misunderstanding autists.
    What I wanted to say is misunderstanding is a two way street, always.
    It is not that only neurotypicals misunderstand autists. Autists also misunderstand neurotypicals.
    It is therefore we cannot answer to their route questions at all. We do not engage in route learning.

    There are many creative people among the neurotypicals.
    Also the neurotypicals who are not so creative, are very much needed in society.
    They have a gift of organization and discipline we autists cannot dream of.
    This is what I have always said. I have been explicitly fair.

    We have a problem in school. That's what caught me in the eye when I read about Cottrell.
    The thing is we hardly ever pass the entry examination (= a route examination) to school. We need extreme preparation.
    We are so bad the teachers assume an extreme dislike for us in the very beginning should we enter any route examination.. They thing we are disorganized and loco. I have told this before and it seems I have to tell it again. Please read:

    When I had passed my graduation exams in a subject x I went to see the Professor.
    I was not motivated to see him. The subject x was not my mainline study at all.
    However, my relatives pushed me to get the paper.
    The Professor said: 'Yes, you have passed the Laudatur exams. It is all-clear but there is one thing. You are not enrolled.
    You had no right to study here. We did not notice you never entered the entry examination to the school.
    It is highly irregular, but we can arrange it for you to enter the entry examination now.'
    I said no.
    He destroyed all my papers.
    I said no because I could not have passed the entry examination!
    He did not know it. Could I have explain it to him?
    Of course not.
    The route questions are impossible to answer.
    "Route", "rote" or "routine"?
    Why couldn't you explain that to him? You just explained it to me.

    This reminds me of Chris Langan's story as relayed by Malcolm Gladwell's in Outliers..
    Gladwell draws some interesting conclusions.
    Back to Cottrell. I do not know much of him. I know what I read in the Wikipedia.
    Hawking was on his side. You are not. Why?
    Hawking was in the wrong?

    It is not about Cottrell.
    I don't know much about him either so I'm not in a position to take sides.
    I just think it was patronising of the federal appeals court to suggest that his autism meant he was incapable of intent. And that it was ironic for you to suggest that he was framed on account of his disability, when, if anything, there was a suggestion that they would have been more lenient if it had been admissible.

    If he wasn't involved in criminal damage, of course, it was unfair that he was imprisoned. But it's hardly the first miscarriage of justice in US history, and won't be the last. As you say, it's not really relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #40
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's not my interpretation. "Loco" was a playful pun on your "loci". I don't judge you unfair, just that your complaint seemed unrealistic. Most people cannot communicate as you do or really understand you without a good deal of effort. Whereas you can understand regular speech. Therefore, the onus is on you to communicate clearly, (in order to share your considerable gifts), rather than invent your own rules and demand that others understand them. (I accept that in the case of severe autists, this is not the case.)

    "Route", "rote" or "routine"?
    Why couldn't you explain that to him? You just explained it to me.

    This reminds me of Chris Langan's story as relayed by Malcolm Gladwell's in Outliers..
    Gladwell draws some interesting conclusions.
    I don't know much about him either so I'm not in a position to take sides.
    I just think it was patronising of the federal appeals court to suggest that his autism meant he was incapable of intent. And that it was ironic for you to suggest that he was framed on account of his disability, when, if anything, there was a suggestion that they would have been more lenient if it had been admissible.

    If he wasn't involved in criminal damage, of course, it was unfair that he was imprisoned. But it's hardly the first miscarriage of justice in US history, and won't be the last. As you say, it's not really relevant.
    I saw Ahtisaari in television, during the Namibia talks.
    He said to the participants in the conflict: Your strength is weakness. Give up.
    Namibia became independent.
    The Strength of Israel: Lobby in Washington. Obstacle to peace.
    Incapability of intent is a blessing.

    Rote is route. Therefore routine.
    A road. Something known.

    Rote learning is to learn by repetition.
    Einstein said in an interview he could not cram to exams.
    He had to go behind the rule to understand. It made him slow.
    Gladwell said Einstein had an IQ of 150. It is not possible.
    To have an IQ of 150 you have to go by rote.

    Autists do not drive on the wrong side of the road. Patriotic thinking.

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