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  1. #41
    Member Alesia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

    Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

    Just baffled.
    Yeah, that kind of bothered me too. That's why I think he put a after his statement, expecting some reaction like this. He said in a statement before that he is well built and thus not bullied.

    But, to add to PT's statement. This isn't just an ISTJ attitude. I think it is an attitude of those who are of the "norm". It's very, very hard to explain to someone what it's like to be clinically depressed such that you truly cannot get out of bed, for example. You can't know this unless you've experienced it. I have. And my ISTJ husband took good care of me at my worst. But then got tired of it and said, why don't you just get over it?

    The guy he described seemed like an INTP, to me. Socialy shy, a loner, reading books no one can understand, but aceing the exams. But, how is he to know what it is like to be something he is not? He may very well have nothing in his experience to show him. He's strong, well built, and an SJ, a more common type.

    Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Thank you,
    ptgatsby and digesthisickness. I think I get it now. I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but :confused:

    ptgatsby,
    I was also bullied. So I can relate.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

  3. #43

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    I'm going to give KMCE the benefit of the doubt and assume he's referring to practical consequences of social behaviour. That's not to condone that such bullying is justified, but rather that it's the probable outcome.

    A person has to decide what's more painful: fitting in or being an outcast.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alesia View Post
    But, to add to PT's statement. This isn't just an ISTJ attitude.... how is he to know what it is like to be something he is not? He may very well have nothing in his experience to show him. He's strong, well built, and an SJ, a more common type.

    Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there.


    Thank you, Alesia. I think you're right about "Some things you really can't understand unless you've been there." Yet I would expect compassion. Perhaps I am too idealistic. *sigh*
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

  5. #45
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    Thank you,
    ptgatsby and digesthisickness. I think I get it now. I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but :confused:

    ptgatsby,
    I was also bullied. So I can relate.

    welcome. and, you're right. in an ideal world, the lamb would walk with the lion, but in reality, it's not how it works, and predators and prey come in human form too. not a pretty fact, but one just the same. and, unfortunately, to not buy into that thought process, or at least recognize its existence, one can find themselves used as an 'example' of 'fitness' for the easier to impress of us humans.

    bullying is simple, it's easy, it doesn't require thought to understand it. that's usually all it takes for something to be used by the majority of people to communicate without words.

  6. #46
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    Thank you,
    ptgatsby and digesthisickness. I think I get it now. I totally don't agree- I mean, ideally, one should walk through one's life without fear, but :confused:

    ptgatsby,
    I was also bullied. So I can relate.
    It is something you have to go through in order to understand, which is probably why we both feel strongly about it. I didn't post when I read that because it really infuriated me.

    The ISTJ view that was expressed above is another view, an ethnocentric view for sure - but it reminds me how these things develop. It was completely practical and down to earth (and solving!) and hold no particular view on how things should be, only what is and how to deal with it, all within a very ethno-centric view. To me, it's completely correct at the same time as being totally wrong.

    In terms of behaviour, there are four types - Victim, Bully, supporter and independent. INFJs would tend to fall into supporter-victim-independent (in that order) roles. INTPs would tend to fall into victim-independent-bully... And ISTJs would tend to fall into supporter-bully-independent. (This very roughly judged by FFM equivalent models using combined dominant trait scores.) I can't judge dominant bully behaviours because the dominant factor is emotional instability, meaning that these generalisations ignore the single largest factor!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I had to quote this too once it had been drawn to my attention. My question to the universe: how on earth do so many INFPs get into serious relationships with ISTJs? I just don't get it. Is it masochism? Martyrdom? A wild leap towards the 'real' world? Some unholy Faustian bargain - your soul in exchange for security?

    This isn't intended as a dig at ISTJs. I just wonder how, with all the types to choose from, it tends to be ISTJs they wind up with. If the above attitude is at all representative of ISTJ worldview, then what could an ISTJ find attractive about an INFP?

    I have a close friend who is an INFP married to an ISTJ, and they are both fucking Miserable With Children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alesia View Post
    Lol! I'm an INFP who married an ISTJ. And my father was INFP and my mother an ISTJ. Yeah, everywhere I find an INFP, and ISTJ seems sure to follow. What gives? And they are horrible matches.
    From somewhere originally on the internet:

    "INFPs and ISTJs generally exhibit a natural predator/prey relationship, which, though it might appear harsh and cruel from the outside, is all part of the natural cycle of life. In fact, were it not for the predation of the ISTJ, the population of INFPs would soon grow to unsustainable levels, overwhelming the ability of their ecological niche to support them."

  8. #48
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    From somewhere originally on the internet:

    "INFPs and ISTJs generally exhibit a natural predator/prey relationship, which, though it might appear harsh and cruel from the outside, is all part of the natural cycle of life. In fact, were it not for the predation of the ISTJ, the population of INFPs would soon grow to unsustainable levels, overwhelming the ability of their ecological niche to support them."
    sparkly sparkly rainbow excretions

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    From somewhere originally on the internet:

    "INFPs and ISTJs generally exhibit a natural predator/prey relationship, which, though it might appear harsh and cruel from the outside, is all part of the natural cycle of life. In fact, were it not for the predation of the ISTJ, the population of INFPs would soon grow to unsustainable levels, overwhelming the ability of their ecological niche to support them."
    I feel like "The Circle of Life" should be playing in the background...

  10. #50

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    First of all I would like offer my apology to ptgatsby and Crabapple, and also to anyone who is offended by what I said. I think saying that the victims are "asking for it" and "have it coming" is bad taste and inappropriate. But that's an afterthought.

    I think Alesia, digesthisickness, and ptgatsby have helped me tremendously in explaining and clarifying the vague parts of my message for Crabapple. So I would like to thank them for their efforts.

    In particular I would like to quote this message from the perceptive ptgatsby, who have explained my choice of words succinctly:

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    What I noted is that he never actually said they "deserve" it, in the sense that is how things should be, only that they are 'asking' for it because of their refusals to integrate. The reference to the gym is akin to saying "not having taken any steps to prevent it, what do you expect"?
    I don’t think bullying is what “should happen” to the antisocial kids that I mentioned. Ideally, no one should be bullied and everyone will accept each other unconditionally. But that would be a Utopian world. I don’t like to state the obvious, but the truth is, bullying is a universal phenomenon and almost every school has its own group of bullies. Since there’s no effective ways to deal with the problem of bullying, I think the fact that bully exists has to be accepted, and it is more realistic and practical to figure out ways to avoid being the victims of bullying (In my message I’ve listed 4 things that I have done that makes me immune to bullying but no one seems to notice). And talking about how wrong bullying is, and that it shouldn’t happen in any schools, seem to me to be all “talk” and no action.

    Now I'd just answer all the questions that Crabapple raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?
    There are no adequate reasons to bully, but bully does not reason with anyone. That’s what really matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?
    I'd explain the "have it coming" remark later.

    For your other question: No. I mean it is better to be physically fit, and look like you can hold a punch. I don’t mean you need to go punch people and kick their ass. That makes you a bully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different?
    Disturbing? Maybe..

    I’ll elaborate further. Here is a list of things that the "antisocial kids" I knew have done that has led them into troubles with the bully.

    - They are physically weak and they don’t know any martial arts. This is the main reason why they get picked.

    - They don’t try to make friends, so no one will come to their rescue.

    - They don't usually respond to social invitations, and have no affiliation with any social clubs or sport teams. (No one deserve to be their friend? Everyone sucks) They seem to be telling people indirectly that they don’t like them, and people do get the message (the bully too).

    - They seem to be hostile to everyone for no apparent reasons. e.g. if you walk pass them in the hallway, they either look at the floor without greeting you, or they give you this ‘menacing stare’, like you own them something. Obviously, bully won’t like that.

    - They usually get top marks in exams but show no interests in assisting others in learning. This is actually fine, but they do nothing to help the class or the school either e.g. school organized party/picnic/anniversary celebration/other school duties. But they are a part of it too. So, other students tend to see them as very selfish and self-absorbed. And when they get bullied, other students will honestly need stronger reasons to consider helping them out. After all, no one wants to get themselves into danger for someone who seems to hate their guts.

    - Listening to songs from Marilyn Manson and other freaks at full throttle, thereby making everyone aware of what they are listening to. (The guy has inspired a kid to shoot up his school so go figure). They think they are ‘bad ass’ and ‘inspiring fear in others’ but no one in their right minds would agree.

    - Their attitude. The “I don’t give a flying fuck about the world” attitude won’t make them popular. There’s too much “nihilism” going on with them, like nothing is really enjoyable except their rather narrow interests. Bully tends to pick on the lonely depressed kid so.

    (There’re more, but I think that’s enough)

    The above reasons are why I say they are “asking for it” and “have it coming”. I regret for using those words but they are what I have in mind when I wrote that message.

    The whole idea is that bullying is a universal phenomenon and I think, as harsh as it may sound, that it is part of students’ responsibility to do something to make themselves less vulnerable as targets of bullying. So, if the antisocial kids insist on not doing anything to protect themselves then what can I say.

    I think it is just an “accepting the reality like it is” kind of thing. You may not like it, but if you can’t change it, then you must adapt. Time to face the world like a man.

    Hemingway said: “The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places.” I agree.
    "Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated."
    - Ernest Hemingway

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