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  1. #31
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    The catch-22 situation is resolvable. Personally I use detachment (no surprise there ). The theory is that bullies thrive off reactions. I give them no such pleasure. Sure there are a few who require no response from the victim but these are most often unskilled bullies who baulk should you confront them.

    Where I work at the moment they are constantly pecking at one another with "jokes" and such trying to establish themselves in a pecking order. Myself, they tend to leave alone. My tongue is faster than most and I rarely look bothered. This seems to work most days.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #32

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    When I was in school, I have never been bullied by anyone, physically or emotionally. I'm your average respectable ISTJ... I basically do the following:

    1) I do a lot of works for the class. If there are papers/magazines/newspapers to be distributed I'm likely the one who does it. And I am always involved in decorating the school and the classroom for Christmas. If the school picnic is coming, I'll do the research for possible picnic sites, call the site for reservation (if needed) once a consensus is reached in class, and arrange the tour bus and etc. Well, come to think of it, these are all shit jobs. They don't make me popular, but they make me indispensable. And people don't mess with those who are useful to them.

    2) I always call people by names. I can honestly remember everyone's name in my class. If I meet you, you can almost guarantee to hear "Hey, your name here! (How are you doing?)". And I generally avoid using pronoun because it creates distance. I'll use your name whenever possible. I think it's a way to show respect, and I do it even to those people that I want to have nothing to do with.

    3) I don't try to make enemies, and I don't take side in conflict either, except those involving my buddies or my girl. In that case they can be sure that I'll back them up no matter what.

    4) For a student I'm quite well-built. So no one wants take the risk of bullying me, physically/emotionally. There are easier preys.

    Although the above are about school, all of them translate very well to work settings.

    And honestly I have never gone out of my way to save those who get bullied by others. But in case I happen to enter the site where someone is being bullied, the bullying group will usually disband and fuck off.. I don't really have to do anything except standing there and staring at them. I don't report them either. I just let it slide.

    But I have to say that some of those who get bullied are really asking for it (or have it coming... ). They are usually lone wolfs who for some strange reasons don't care to socialize with anyone. They don't join any extra-curricular activities either. All they do is playing chess or sitting in a corner reading some books that no one ever heard of. When you try to talk to them they just make some lame excuses and go away. But what truly makes things worse is they usually come out on top in exams... and piss everyone off. The funny thing is they never quite sense the danger around them, and they don't care about themselves enough to go to gym and work out either. So, they really have it coming.
    "Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated."
    - Ernest Hemingway

  3. #33
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    .
    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 09-12-2007 at 04:12 PM.

  4. #34
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Not necessarily... For example:

    Direct: "I don't respect person X and I think X is a loser"
    Indrect: "Person X is kind of cute, in the way that X never manages to succeed at anything"
    Oh, I fucking hate this bullshit. Hatehatehate.
    Let's do this thing.

  5. #35
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I suspect that relational bullying is far more intense among women because women are far more territorial than men.
    I want to get the book "The Selfmade Man"... it's about a woman who pretends to be a man to get a different look at relationships... I don't know if it'll be any good, but I found it really interesting that men were far more accepting of each other than women were towards other (male or female and by a significant margin, according to the author)... But also that men were quite complimentary of their wives, and well behaved... and that women were absolute bitches in the dating arena... She said that a lot of her stereotypes about men were broken while quite a few female stereotypes that men held (that previously annoyed her) were validated repeatedly.

    So I'd agree... There is something different about female-female competition than male-male competition... and it plays out a lot in social dynamics.

  6. #36
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 09-13-2007 at 02:20 PM.

  7. #37
    Member Alesia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Here is the state of the case:mindless conformity is the foundation to nearly all actions in a conventional group.

    What we have is leaders of the group deeming the behavior of the outsider unacceptable and then implicitly set them an ultimatum: change or leave, usually by giving them negative feedback. Then, nearly everybody else, does as the leaders do, and in the end we get newcomers held to obloquy for seemingly innocuous behavior because they did not appease the whims of those few people in the group who were calling shots.

    As my ENFP childhood friend once said.. 'If xxxx hates you, everybody hates you, make one mistake and you're done'...I told him that it is not true that everybody hates you because he may, they will just act like they do for the sake of putting on an appropriate image. This, in my opinion is why you should not assess yourself by external standards, as they are established by the whims of the group-leaders. Instead you should assess yourself by internal standards, that you, yourself have thought through thoroughly and clearly understand why they are appropriate.
    Yes. I have seen this over and over again. In work, and in group settings. Whomoever has the loudest mouth or is more assertive or the group leader, people will just follow. I have watched as small groups of strangers begin to develop group codes, surrounding assertive one. I am very aware and can "see" this process happening. If I don't agree with one of the "rules" that develope, I don't follow it, and do indeed suffer the consequences of rejection. Group mind.

    And my sensitive self finds all of this agressive behavoir very, very, painful. I wish I could figure out how to put up more objectiveness and walls as Ivy, I believe suggested. I've gotten better over the years. But now, I am going back to school to get another master's professional degree to change careers. All of the students are in their mid 20's and female, young enough to be my daughters. I've never had children, so I have no idea how to behave amoung them. I can't hang out with them in bars and stuff, but I do hope to find a way to interact. Ugh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I had to quote this too once it had been drawn to my attention. My question to the universe: how on earth do so many INFPs get into serious relationships with ISTJs? I just don't get it. Is it masochism? Martyrdom? A wild leap towards the 'real' world? Some unholy Faustian bargain - your soul in exchange for security?

    This isn't intended as a dig at ISTJs. I just wonder how, with all the types to choose from, it tends to be ISTJs they wind up with. If the above attitude is at all representative of ISTJ worldview, then what could an ISTJ find attractive about an INFP?

    I have a close friend who is an INFP married to an ISTJ, and they are both fucking Miserable With Children.
    Lol! I'm an INFP who married an ISTJ. And my father was INFP and my mother an ISTJ. Yeah, everywhere I find an INFP, and ISTJ seems sure to follow. What gives? And they are horrible matches.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    But I have to say that some of those who get bullied are really asking for it (or have it coming... ). They are usually lone wolfs who for some strange reasons don't care to socialize with anyone. They don't join any extra-curricular activities either. All they do is playing chess or sitting in a corner reading some books that no one ever heard of. When you try to talk to them they just make some lame excuses and go away. But what truly makes things worse is they usually come out on top in exams... and piss everyone off. The funny thing is they never quite sense the danger around them, and they don't care about themselves enough to go to gym and work out either. So, they really have it coming.
    I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

    Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

    Just baffled.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

  9. #39
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

    Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

    Just baffled.
    What he wrote is practically ISTJ typecasting, enough that I had to wonder if he was just pretending to be an ISTJ

    What I noted is that he never actually said they "deserve" it, in the sense that is how things should be, only that they are 'asking' for it because of their refusals to integrate. The reference to the gym is akin to saying "not having taken any steps to prevent it, what do you expect"?

    It is a very different viewpoint and very interesting to read. However... having been through bullying, having studied it and having helped others deal with it... it's not a valid criticism in the majority of the cases. It is similar reasoning to "rape being asked for" and such... but that in itself is helpful for me to understand the other viewpoints. It also reminded me of how strongly NP I was because I was totally projecting my past onto his type. However there is enough truth in his statement that it made me check my reaction and think about it for a while.

    For me, it is especially interesting because I can see the traits in the "ISTJ" makeup that make up social conformity - something that is needed when you pull back from MBTI. This might be a case of the pendulum swinging too far in one direction... but still interesting to see it exampled from the other side (so to speak )

  10. #40
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    I'd like to understand what's in KMCE's mind. I find what he said disturbing but deeply interesting. How do those bullied ask for it? By being isolated? By being different? Why is that an adequate reason to bully someone? What about respect for diversity?

    Why do they have it coming? By the remark about the gym, I assume he means those who are not physically fit, whether they are seen as too heavy or too thin. Must one assume that one has to be ready for attack, or ready to physically attack a bully?

    Just baffled.
    i took the part you quoted as 'they have some nerve to not be afraid (or be aware they should be) when they have nothing to defend themselves with if attacked.' like a bird being cocky enough to walk amongst cats. 'they get what they deserve.'

    not saying i agree with him, just saying that's how i read it.

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