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  1. #21
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Are men afraid of the verbal humiliation? Some seem numb or immune to it, they do not get the "sensitivity" of it at all and shrug it off. I've heard many women complain about how their standard ways of "asking for things" in the relationships seem to go way over the men's heads.

    I can see that a man might be afraid of being humiliated in terms of his competence and/or strength, verbally, though.
    It's an effective weapon that I use very sparingly and with careful aim.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I've actually had kind of "reverse" bullying before. Now that is odd. Basically the guy got all paranoid about why the group of blokes I hung around with didn't like him. He presumed it was my fault (I think it was transferred aggression cause I hung out with him in the past and no longer had as much time for him (none after this)). Basically the guy used to attack me and get me into trouble with the headmaster on a semi regular basis. I got called a "ringleader" (which I found highly amusing) by the headmaster! It's a swine trying to convince someone that the "victim" is actually the bully himself!

    Oh and that whole "never hit women" is such BS. It should read "Women should NEVER hit men. Men should NEVER hit someone who didn't strike first.". That would be a just statement. Other wise it gives women two outlets for their anger and wrath and pens men up within themselves (that method is just asking for trouble).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    In mixed-sex arguments, men are afraid of being verbally humiliated by women...
    This is true.

    ...and women are afraid of being killed by men.
    This is interesting.

  4. #24
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    ... Yesterdays' instance is fresh in everyones mind so I will start here. My attack on BW I thought would have been blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of intuition...How dare you treat a forum newcomer like shit due to your personal fucking issues that have nothing at all to do with her!?!"
    fwiw, I made no connection between this thread and that one. But, I'm spacey at times and still am not sure what happened there, but it's good you explained yourself here. Sometimes people need direct confrontation. It is difficult for me to rise to the occasion in those instances unless my mothering instincts are engaged.

    I responded to your post because it made me think about my own behaviors and choices in conflict. I noticed said conflict and took an indirect approach, and now am interested to analyze it. I did not address any of the players directly but started analyzing why such things happen in the abstract. Can't say it's a feminine thing, but my instinct is to divert away from the personal and emotional when there is conflict and begin examining the issue abstractly. My hope is that it will divert the minds to a neutral, analytical place. This could encourage participants to take that knowledge away and 'hopefully' apply it personally as they see fit. It is clear that this strategy does not fit all situations, but it is a non-conflict strategy that is not passive-aggressive.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #25
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Here is the state of the case:mindless conformity is the foundation to nearly all actions in a conventional group.

    What we have is leaders of the group deeming the behavior of the outsider unacceptable and then implicitly set them an ultimatum: change or leave, usually by giving them negative feedback. Then, nearly everybody else, does as the leaders do, and in the end we get newcomers held to obloquy for seemingly innocuous behavior because they did not appease the whims of those few people in the group who were calling shots.

    As my ENFP childhood friend once said.. 'If xxxx hates you, everybody hates you, make one mistake and you're done'...I told him that it is not true that everybody hates you because he may, they will just act like they do for the sake of putting on an appropriate image. This, in my opinion is why you should not assess yourself by external standards, as they are established by the whims of the group-leaders. Instead you should assess yourself by internal standards, that you, yourself have thought through thoroughly and clearly understand why they are appropriate.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Tradtionally, gender roles make it so that overt aggressiveness is more tolerated in males than in females. I have a couple of personal examples in mind of females that were bullied by other females in a relational way. One thing I have noticed is that these bullied females were not weak or victim like in any way. Rather, they were honest and direct females who said what they think but didn't want to play by the rules of the game. One such person I know was an ENTJ. She was completely ostracized by some of her peers because they could not stand her direct mode of communication. As a consequence, she ended up hanging out with guys. It was really a sight to behold... the other females would superficially treat the ENTJ in a very nice way. Then, once she had her backed turned, they would say things like "Let's just ignore her next time she comes!". The worse being, that, once the ENTJ tried to confront them openly, they would deny everything and, worse, would then accuse the ENTJ of being mean and aggressive. When I asked the girls why they were doing that, one replied: "There's no use in creating needless conflict. Plus, come on... she's really a bitch, she deserves it". The ENTJ in my example had lots of charisma. The other girls might have been jealous of her and also wanted to punish her for not conforming to gender roles.
    "She lacks the indefinable charm of weakness."
    - Oscar Wilde

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    What do you think about these behaviors and do you have any anecdotes in mind?
    I think these behaviors are wrong and disgusting. No one should be bullied because they deviate from the norms.

    I always think social norms are a prison and no one genuinely like them. Most of us just see them as a necessity and follow them without questioning, because it is fruitless to challenge them. If you don't want to be left behind then you must conform to the standards. It's really a small price to pay for what the society has to offer.
    "Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated."
    - Ernest Hemingway

  7. #27
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    I like the responses of people here, you strike me as genuine.

    Lookin4theBestNU, this thread is not directed at you nor inspired by CTG. It was inspired by behaviors I observed recently when a "different" female enters a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would really so much hope that those behaviors would be left behind in childhood, instead of being practiced by adults. It happens when people are territorial as well, like in churches or other organizations, where there is a "self-ordained privileged" group. People who just want to bolster their own importance by ostracizing others.

    It definitely seems possible that your friend was being ostracized because of her strong personality and because she was not acting in line with the other women at her company -- i.e., breaking the social code.
    Completely agree. I also would have hoped that these behaviors would have been left behind in childhood.

    I never got bullied myself. However, when I was younger I protected several kids who were being bullied or interfered in bullying. I felt a sense of relief of establishing justice and of doing my part to help others. There was nothing that annoyed me more that seeing the suffering of others and seeing people unfairly treated. I don't know why but those situations have always affected me very strongly. I would get very angry.

    This transposed to social bullying. The problem is that whenever I tried to protect those victim of it, it was easy for the bullies to turn the tables and accuse me of being disruptive. I would confront openly and the bullies would use that to play the victims. I accumulate alot of anger at seeing people unfairly treated and feeling powerless about it. Anyone a bit different is mocked, gossiped about, rejected and demeaned... often without ever being told in front what is wrong about them. I can't stand it and it makes me sick.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    My sincerest apologies then Maverick for my over-active N. The comment sounded so much like what I said yesterday that I thought it was. Sensitive NFs !
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  9. #29
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    This transposed to social bullying. The problem is that whenever I tried to protect those victim of it, it was easy for the bullies to turn the tables and accuse me of being disruptive. I would confront openly and the bullies would use that to play the victims. I accumulate alot of anger at seeing people unfairly treated and feeling powerless about it. Anyone a bit different is mocked, gossiped about, rejected and demeaned... often without ever being told in front what is wrong about them. I can't stand it and it makes me sick.
    Classic passive-aggression! That is an example of individuals who engage in both direct and indirect aggression. Some people are either/or, but many use a variety of tactics to achieve their end. Aggressors can become quite skilled at the catch-22. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Perhaps it is the willingness to use both tactics that assures this type of cornering?

    I'm not certain how to win with such folks, but have learned to view them as rabid hyenas whose behavior simply is what it is. Finding ways to create boundaries that are practical, solid, and impersonal have proven the most helpful. Literal ways of avoiding them like not being in their presence is my best strategy so far. You can fight them, and should when there aren't other options, but for some reason many people like that never seem to run out of energy. It is like breathing to them, it is where they gather their energy. Finding non-draining tactics, or tactics that provide personal strength is necessary when in combat with such people.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    I always think social norms are a prison and no one genuinely like them. Most of us just see them as a necessity and follow them without questioning, because it is fruitless to challenge them. If you don't want to be left behind then you must conform to the standards. It's really a small price to pay for what the society has to offer.
    This is a good point and may be tactically the best thing to do. You can't expect to change all social norms. Personally, I will try to adapt and if people would like me to take a "coordinator" role, I will then try to propose different social norms.

    BTW, I see that you are an ISTJ. I hope you hang around here sometime because it would be great to have an ISTJ around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    My sincerest apologies then Maverick for my over-active N. The comment sounded so much like what I said yesterday that I thought it was. Sensitive NFs !
    That's fine, you've been very honest about your stance and I don't think you were ever trying to do something demeaning. I can understand your situation and thank you for your comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Classic passive-aggression! That is an example of individuals who engage in both direct and indirect aggression. Some people are either/or, but many use a variety of tactics to achieve their end. Aggressors can become quite skilled at the catch-22. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Perhaps it is the willingness to use both tactics that assures this type of cornering?

    I'm not certain how to win with such folks, but have learned to view them as rabid hyenas whose behavior simply is what it is. Finding ways to create boundaries that are practical, solid, and impersonal have proven the most helpful. Literal ways of avoiding them like not being in their presence is my best strategy so far. You can fight them, and should when there aren't other options, but for some reason many people like that never seem to run out of energy. It is like breathing to them, it is where they gather their energy. Finding non-draining tactics, or tactics that provide personal strength is necessary when in combat with such people.
    I've been asking myself just the same questions. What is the best way to deal with these folks? I think you are right. Creating solid boundaries is very helpful. Fighting them constantly can be tiring. I think you have to pick your battles and be sure what you are going to do will be positive and enable constructive change... not just fuel pointless conflict. It can be draining to deal with such people if you are not careful.

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