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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Tradtionally, gender roles make it so that overt aggressiveness is more tolerated in males than in females.
    I think that is true. There might be a tendency towards how each gender chooses to express power over others, but one disturbing trend is a rise in direct physical violence by girls against each other in schools. For whatever reason, more overt aggression is becoming acceptable.

    the other females would superficially treat the ENTJ in a very nice way. Then, once she had her backed turned, they would say things like "Let's just ignore her next time she comes!". The worse being, that, once the ENTJ tried to confront them openly, they would deny everything and, worse, would then accuse the ENTJ of being mean and aggressive. When I asked the girls why they were doing that, one replied: "There's no use in creating needless conflict. Plus, come on... she's really a bitch, she deserves it".


    I hate that sort of thing.


    What do you think about these behaviors and do you have any anecdotes in mind?
    My daughter is in third grade and has already had to deal with it. She said the other week a group of girls would come nearby and talk about her... and every time she tried to join their group, they would leave, just far enough that she could not be part of the group, and then look at her and laugh. (She's a tough cookie, though -- she befriends the other girls who have been shunned, and she's intruded on their group and joined their conversations whether they liked it or not.)

    I would really so much hope that those behaviors would be left behind in childhood, instead of being practiced by adults. It happens when people are territorial as well, like in churches or other organizations, where there is a "self-ordained privileged" group. People who just want to bolster their own importance by ostracizing others.

    It definitely seems possible that your friend was being ostracized because of her strong personality and because she was not acting in line with the other women at her company -- i.e., breaking the social code.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls was the first book I read that spoke openly about girls' cattiness. Girls don't grow out of it--no one grows out of bully behavior, I don't think--it's too effective a survival strategy.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls was the first book I read that spoke openly about girls' cattiness. Girls don't grow out of it--no one grows out of bully behavior, I don't think--it's too effective a survival strategy.
    Do you know what I hate most about cattiness?

    It steals your voice.

    It muddies your vision.

    It tries to tell you that what you thought you saw and heard was a lie, and it prevents you from feeling you can voice your concern without being labeled as the crazy one. It makes you doubt yourself. It totally erodes a person at the core.

    One thing I always appreciated about the more typical "masculine" approach was that it was all up-front -- there is a conflict, you thrash it out, then you're done, and everyone moves on.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you know what I hate most about cattiness?

    It steals your voice.

    It muddies your vision.

    It tries to tell you that what you thought you saw and heard was a lie, and it prevents you from feeling you can voice your concern without being labeled as the crazy one. It makes you doubt yourself. It totally erodes a person at the core.
    Fair enough.
    One thing I always appreciated about the more typical "masculine" approach was that it was all up-front -- there is a conflict, you thrash it out, then you're done, and everyone moves on.
    True, for the most part.

    What I dislike about 'the more typical "masculine" approach' is that it's expected as a part of social culture.

    Trying to step outside of our culture of social aggression is a good way to become a target.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    What I dislike about 'the more typical "masculine" approach' is that it's expected as a part of social culture. Trying to step outside of our culture of social aggression is a good way to become a target.
    Well... yes. That's the part I *didn't* much like. The Alpha Male thing gets old.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well... yes. That's the part I *didn't* much like. The Alpha Male thing gets old.
    The "alpha male" overt aggression is likely a catalyst for the female passive aggression, and vice versa. It wouldn't make much sense that they occur in isolation. Some types of outright aggression are also misrepresentations. Men may use exaggeration where women use opposites? Does that make sense?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The "alpha male" overt aggression is likely a catalyst for the female passive aggression, and vice versa. It wouldn't make much sense that they occur in isolation. Some types of outright aggression are also misrepresentations. Men may use exaggeration where women use opposites? Does that make sense?
    I think I understand what you mean:
    Exaggeration = accentuating the aggression into raw power
    opposites = the passive-aggressive thing, channeling what would have become raw power into opposing behavior

    I am not sure how to PROVE any of that, but it is interesting to consider.

    Another idea; I can easily see evolutionary behavioralists saying things like natural selection would have favored male hunters/fighters who showed direct aggression, considering their physical makeup and role in the society (hunter/aggressor). Meanwhile, selection would not have favored such women because their task was to maintain the home base and raise the children, so the behavior that would have been bred for would have included alternate forms of social aggression... things that got the aggression out but did not overtly destroy the community.

    Or something like that, this version is rough.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    A class I took on assertiveness (don't ask) had this tidbit of info.

    In mixed-sex arguments, men are afraid of being verbally humiliated by women and women are afraid of being killed by men.
    Somehow, that follows this discussion, but I can't make it fit at the moment.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Somehow, that follows this discussion, but I can't make it fit at the moment.
    Are men afraid of the verbal humiliation? Some seem numb or immune to it, they do not get the "sensitivity" of it at all and shrug it off. I've heard many women complain about how their standard ways of "asking for things" in the relationships seem to go way over the men's heads.

    I can see that a man might be afraid of being humiliated in terms of his competence and/or strength, verbally, though.

    The woman thing seems very real to me. Men seem ingrained in our culture to not hit women (you can hit men, not women, or you're a real jerk). But it still doesn't address the fact that men have more muscle and generally more size than women, and many times if a man wanted to overpower a woman, he could do so unless she is prepared for it.

    Put another way, men generally don't know what it's like to be afraid (or at least wary) to walk alone across a parking lot at night.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that you imply belief that covert attacks are somehow wrong yet you initiated one anyway. I get the point that this thread was inspired, at least in part, by yours truly. I will walk right in since the door is open and will probably regret this but I'm willing to be vulnerable and let my guard down...at least for awhile. I'm going to openly show my reasoning/thinking process, IRL and most certainly about the thread(s) in question for examples if you are actually interested. I am assuming that this thread was meant to be a real question to gather information and not solely as an attack though I could be mistaken. I am after constructive criticism in better communication (if that is what this thread was intended for) not an argument/justification/approval. I will proceed from there. I am surprised usually when it seems assumed that I need everyones pats-on-the-back all of the time. I am a strong enough person, feeler or not, that someone hating me on the forum is not going to cause me any lost sleep. I enjoy conversations/reading the thoughts of many,many people here but those people whose words stick with me are very few.
    Direct: "I don't respect person X and I think X is a loser"
    Indrect: "Person X is kind of cute, in the way that X never manages to succeed at anything"
    Yesterdays' instance is fresh in everyones mind so I will start here. My attack on BW I thought would have been blatantly obvious to anyone with an ounce of intuition. This may seem dishonest, but assuredly it's not, I was quite shocked that it was taken as a way of dancing around it or be 'precious' or hiding it from him in anyway. I used the word "cute" quite purposely and thought it would be direct to him and any another N type. My intention as well was that it was meant to be worse than saying "You are a complete fucking asshole! How dare you treat a forum newcomer like shit due to your personal fucking issues that have nothing at all to do with her!?!" The anticipated response of "Ti doesn't take into account other peoples feelings blah blah blah I have no feelings blah blah blah" wasn't what I was after. I was intending to be highly 'disrespectful' but was not trying to say BW never manages to accomplish anything. I miscommunicated obviously if that was gathered.

    Let's say however I had approached it that way. First it would have been shrugged off, and given the wrong impression, therefore a waste of time and the latter far from the goal. Secondly I was trying to keep an already attacked Feeler from getting her feelings hurt further, that was my main concern. I was (hopefully) as well giving her a way to view BWs own covert attack a little less harshly and take the sting out of it. I seriously doubt I would stay in a forum if after my first day I had a thread started about me and then watch the conversation disintegrate into a Jerry Springer mudslinging contest. Lastly and this applies to most communication from me either IRL or here, it was meant to be efficient=maximum impact for minimal effort. In essence killing two (or more) birds with one stone. I refused to "shut-up" in this instance, which I do more often than is known, and watch another episode happen again period. I am sincere when I inquire what more could have been accomplished had I approached it the other way?

    Tradtionally, gender roles make it so that overt aggressiveness is more tolerated in males than in females. I have a couple of personal examples in mind of females that were bullied by other females in a relational way. One thing I have noticed is that these bullied females were not weak or victim like in any way. Rather, they were honest and direct females who said what they think but didn't want to play by the rules of the game. One such person I know was an ENTJ. She was completely ostracized by some of her peers because they could not stand her direct mode of communication. As a consequence, she ended up hanging out with guys. It was really a sight to behold... the other females would superficially treat the ENTJ in a very nice way. Then, once she had her backed turned, they would say things like "Let's just ignore her next time she comes!". The worse being, that, once the ENTJ tried to confront them openly, they would deny everything and, worse, would then accuse the ENTJ of being mean and aggressive. When I asked the girls why they were doing that, one replied: "There's no use in creating needless conflict. Plus, come on... she's really a bitch, she deserves it". The ENTJ in my example had lots of charisma. The other girls might have been jealous of her and also wanted to punish her for not conforming to gender roles.
    I will say on this that similar things have happened to me as such, but I am not expecting anyone to care so please don't take it that way. I don't think it had a thing to do with jealousy. I am not sure what it had to do with, maybe I am just a bitch, but it's possible gender was the reason. I'm only fearful of direct confrontation in a few instances IRL. I can do it however when it seems like the best way to go which isn't often as it doesn't pay off. All in all, I am skeptical of this story and it's purpose so at this stage not willing to invest much into it until it becomes clear.

    I am tired of writing but I think CTG, and my attack on her, should be explained at least quickly. I WAS being a bitch to her and tried being direct about the behaviors which were bothering me. I should have let it go and it was a weakness on my part that I didn't restrain myself more. The internal struggle I have with my irritation and knowing that my expectations are selfish is difficult. My intentions I stated were not entirely pure, but I did have a good one too. Unfortunately I think the bad outweighed the good. I compromised my own values in not forcing myself to be more tolerant. I could have handled it differently. I don't know just how much I regret it, but I know not enough yet and that's as honest and direct as I can get.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

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