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  1. #11
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    So for us less enlightened, what steps are needed to use these theories for genuine insight and growth?
    Stopping being afraid to do so, by letting go of the attachment to the story of the mind e.g. one's identity, life's achievements, and other mental trophies being clinged to -- "no, I can't question ____ , I've invested so much of my life into it/career/I have dependencies/my family, etc".
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #12
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    It seems they are from the Mechanical Age. And so they are a technique to make the machine work. And naturally, metaphorically, we are the machine.

    So it seems to me that they allow us to look at ourselves through a particular lens. And what do we see? We see a machine.

    But just as the Stone Age is over, the Bronze Age is over, the Iron Age is over, the Age of Print is over, so the Mechanical Age is also over. But it is just that our metaphors and way of thinking hasn't yet caught up with the Electronic Age.

    It is as though we are driving forward looking in the rear vision mirror at the receding Mechanical Age while the Electronic Age is rushing towards us through the windshield.

    Typing is nostalgia for the Mechanical Age.

    Typing is a comfort in the unfamiliar and disorientating Electrical Age.

  3. #13
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This is interesting. So would you say then the way to utilize type theory is to then become less like one's type?
    I wouldn't exactly say less like one's type. You're still like your type, you can just pay more attention to other perspectives. It depends on what you men by "like one's type". That's probably thinking of type in terms of behavior, but the different perspectives (functions) are behavior (though they may shape it).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Stopping being afraid to do so, by letting go of the attachment to the story of the mind e.g. one's identity, life's achievements, and other mental trophies being clinged to -- "no, I can't question ____ , I've invested so much of my life into it/career/I have dependencies/my family, etc".
    Can you give some specific examples?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It seems they are from the Mechanical Age. And so they are a technique to make the machine work. And naturally, metaphorically, we are the machine.

    So it seems to me that they allow us to look at ourselves through a particular lens. And what do we see? We see a machine.

    But just as the Stone Age is over, the Bronze Age is over, the Iron Age is over, the Age of Print is over, so the Mechanical Age is also over. But it is just that our metaphors and way of thinking hasn't yet caught up with the Electronic Age.

    It is as though we are driving forward looking in the rear vision mirror at the receding Mechanical Age while the Electronic Age is rushing towards us through the windshield.

    Typing is nostalgia for the Mechanical Age.

    Typing is a comfort in the unfamiliar and disorientating Electrical Age.
    What are the salient differences between a view of ourselves in the Electronic Age, and the Mechanical Age?

    The main difference in public awareness I can think of is that most people realize that the same "information" can be sent in different physical forms. How this affects our views of ourselves, I am not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I wouldn't exactly say less like one's type. You're still like your type, you can just pay more attention to other perspectives. It depends on what you men by "like one's type". That's probably thinking of type in terms of behavior, but the different perspectives (functions) are behavior (though they may shape it).
    What is it that makes up a "perspective"? How is this different from the view of the world that people build up over time?

    Certainly, worldviews affect behavior. But I am not sure a comprehensive study of this sort has been undertaken. Do you believe typology is actually a study of how worldviews affect behavior? If so, it seems clear that our worldviews are constantly in flux. With this being the case, what portion of "personality" is actually stable with regards to a person?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    By "perspectives" in that context, I meant the functions. So then if you're iNtuitive and Thinking, then as you grow, you pay more attention to Sensing and Feeling, and you can also pay attention to the opposite attitude of the functions from that you are accustomed to.
    All of this does not make you "less like your type", it just makes you more mature and balanced.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  6. #16
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Can you elaborate on this? It seems to me that the only way to be an entity theorist and be optimistic about it is if the "entity" I identify with is seen in a favorable light.
    You may argue convincingly that an "entity theorist" (who sounds like someone with an external locus of control), may interpret type theories with pessimism. This is a property of the person's predisposition though, not the theory. An optimist, will more likely take the "incremental view". This thread alone, is evidence of that. I do not think you have successfully argued that type theories *in themselves* invariably lead to pessimism.

    I do have a problem with MBTI theories, but that is because they are wrong and self-limiting, rather than genuinely harmful in the way you describe. I plan to develop this idea in another thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I do have a problem with MBTI theories, but that is because they are wrong and self-limiting, rather than genuinely harmful in the way you describe. I plan to develop this idea in another thread.
    So have you stopped 'identifying' as an INTP? At least in terms of a contexual guideline that fits you rather than you fitting it?

    Despite my identification with ESFJ I do somewhat agree with you on this point:

    but that is because they are wrong and self-limiting
    Somewhat because they are or can be self-limiting, but they are not necessarily wrong except in a subjective standard. However this is less me defending the theory and more to get to the point that often it is how such theories are used.

    I still maintain that it could easily be an elaborate ruse by Isabel Myers-Briggs and her mother Katharine Mary-Briggs as a way of subtly inducing people to be more considerate to others and their approach to the world, rather than a true enlightenment on an individual's cognition.

    I can't really think of a better method besides deliberate indoctrination and/or torture or simply by 'spreading the word' to achieve that outcome.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You may argue convincingly that an "entity theorist" (who sounds like someone with an external locus of control), may interpret type theories with pessimism. This is a property of the person's predisposition though, not the theory. An optimist, will more likely take the "incremental view". This thread alone, is evidence of that. I do not think you have successfully argued that type theories *in themselves* invariably lead to pessimism.

    I do have a problem with MBTI theories, but that is because they are wrong and self-limiting, rather than genuinely harmful in the way you describe. I plan to develop this idea in another thread.
    I had not considered the link between being an entity/incremental theorist and locus of control. Somehow the entity view vs. incremental view seems more fundamental, since this is how one views oneself. The locus of control would be an indication of how much ones own decisions affects ones environment and lives. It seems very possible that one can hold an entity view and believe in strong control over their environment and lives...though I believe it also means that the entity theorist with an internal locus of control would stay very much in his/her comfort zone.

    I wasn't aiming to make an argument that type theories necessitate pessimism. I was merely pointing out a potentially ironic result of studying the psychology of self as a means of personal growth. I started the thread to see if people had specific steps they took to avoid this pitfall of studying the psychological theories about self.

    Can you give an example of an incremental view of oneself when interpreting some psychological theory of self?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #19
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    By "perspectives" in that context, I meant the functions. So then if you're iNtuitive and Thinking, then as you grow, you pay more attention to Sensing and Feeling, and you can also pay attention to the opposite attitude of the functions from that you are accustomed to.
    All of this does not make you "less like your type", it just makes you more mature and balanced.
    Doesn't this just perpetuate the entity view of self by redefining actions, thoughts, words, and behaviors as inherent indicators of personality? Or the cloud/set of them intertwined? I think the goal is to become XXXX and learning things like NLP, the biological impact of different foods, thoughts, behaviors, and environments on mood, affect, and general cognition can help you adjust on the fly as needed.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #20
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    So have you stopped 'identifying' as an INTP? At least in terms of a contexual guideline that fits you rather than you fitting it?
    I have identified as INTP for the past 10yrs (albeit, interspersed with periods of skepticism). Theories of type are deeply ingrained in my consciousness. It will take a while to purge myself of them completely.
    Somewhat because they are or can be self-limiting, but they are not necessarily wrong except in a subjective standard.
    No, they are objectively wrong.

    I still maintain that it could easily be an elaborate ruse by Isabel Myers-Briggs and her mother Katharine Mary-Briggs as a way of subtly inducing people to be more considerate to others and their approach to the world, rather than a true enlightenment on an individual's cognition.
    I think they were sincere but misguided.

    I can't really think of a better method besides deliberate indoctrination and/or torture or simply by 'spreading the word' to achieve that outcome.
    I don't think it makes people more considerate / understanding of each other. In fact, the reverse is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I had not considered the link between being an entity/incremental theorist and locus of control. Somehow the entity view vs. incremental view seems more fundamental, since this is how one views oneself. The locus of control would be an indication of how much ones own decisions affects ones environment and lives. It seems very possible that one can hold an entity view and believe in strong control over their environment and lives...though I believe it also means that the entity theorist with an internal locus of control would stay very much in his/her comfort zone.

    I wasn't aiming to make an argument that type theories necessitate pessimism. I was merely pointing out a potentially ironic result of studying the psychology of self as a means of personal growth. I started the thread to see if people had specific steps they took to avoid this pitfall of studying the psychological theories about self.

    Can you give an example of an incremental view of oneself when interpreting some psychological theory of self?
    I think Eric B already did this. Theories of self are different from theories of type, which is the focus of this thread. There is nothing in any theory of type which states that change and growth is not possible (within limits).

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I think the goal is to become XXXX
    I agree that should be the goal, however show me where any typologist makes this explicit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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