User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 21

  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    All I can say at this point is LOL. I am not trying to *justify* anything to do, you believe what you wish to.

    If you are okay with accepting and excusing messed up judgement in the people around you, that's your affair, but I am just expressing that I find it highly disturbing when people do this. Excusing flawed, corrupt, bad whatever you wish to call it, judgement is just leaving the door open for bad decisions, which snowball into bad outcomes and then everyone is shrugging their shoulders wondering why such a bad outcome when the intentions were good and everyone was feeling so good and happy!

    The implication was not meant to be Biblical, I forgot that phrase even has Biblical reference.

    So can someone build a house on a cracked foundation and not expect problems down the road? It is the same for flawed or corrupted judgement. If the foundation for judgements is bad, the outcomes cannot be expected to be good.
    I just think you try to fit too many things in under the same idea, when a different one applies to each. I think it's irrational to assume that all flaws are equal, and that you can't afford to overlook anything.

    It just feels like you're too quick to judge everything as completly good or completely bad, when in reality it's just not that extreme. The thing you don't understand is that I have standards. It's not as if I would allow things on one level, and then allow them to escalate incrementally. I might allow something minor, or might forgive someone a number of times, but there's a level they could go to where I would give them an ultimatum.

    I can't even comprehend this reaction of yours. I know there's something wrong with your interpretation, but your reaction is to something so vague and broad that I can't even see it.

    It's not reasonable for you to say this. You don't even know what the foundation of the judgment is, and you have no way to know whether it will change. You can't just go around saying that every choice that was not made according to some idea you have of how choices should be made is going to have a bad outcome. You don't know enough about the situation.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think I can talk to you anymore. I hope someone else explains this, because I can't reach you at all. I want you to understand so badly, and you're just not moving from this unfair interpretation. I don't know if you're making sense in some other context and I'm just not able to get you or what. The whole situation just makes me feel stupid. But you don't have any right to judge what I do according to these weird personal archetypes of corruption and perfection that aren't even related to reality in a way I can comprehend.

  2. #12
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I hope someone else explains this, because I can't reach you at all.
    Any takers?


    I want you to understand so badly, and you're just not moving from this unfair interpretation. You don't have any right to judge what I do according to these weird personal archetypes of corruption and perfection that aren't even related to reality in a way I can comprehend.
    Well, I don't think others have a right to judge me based on some weird social rituals and the proper inflection in my voice, but some do.

    You can't just go around saying that every choice that was not made according to some idea you have of how choices should be made is going to have a bad outcome. You don't know enough about the situation.
    I have seen enough people with corrupted judgement make choices with good intentions but because their judgement was off, they created outcomes far from what they intended. I also have seen others support these decisions out of a desire to keep harmony. So I am disturbed to hear someone say they would support corrupted judgement in their allies. It is just that simple.

  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Well, I don't think others have a right to judge me based on some weird social rituals and the proper inflection in my voice, but some do.
    Thanks, that made me feel better.
    I have seen enough people with corrupted judgement make choices with good intentions but because their judgement was off, they created outcomes far from what they intended. I also have seen others support these decisions out of a desire to keep harmony. So I am disturbed to hear someone say they would support corrupted judgement in their allies. It is just that simple.
    You act as if everything that is corrupt your standards is corrupt in such an obvious way that everyone should recognize what's corrupt from what isn't. I'm sorry, but I don't think I even know what corruption is for you. I may know the definition, "defective," but you have an idea of corruption embodied in your perceptions such that you're not even aware it exists apart from perceptible reality. I don't think I feel that strongly about anything enough to comprehend what you mean. I honestly don't think I'd want to.

    I just want to let you know that I don't dislike you personally, I'm just so angry that neither of us can understand each other. It seems like we should be able to, but just keep missing it.

  4. #14
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You act as if everything that is corrupt your standards is corrupt in such an obvious way that everyone should recognize what's corrupt from what isn't. I'm sorry, but I don't think I even know what corruption is for you. I don't think I feel that strongly about anything enough to comprehend what you mean. I honestly don't think I'd want to.
    I am talking about when one can recognize that judgement is corrupt, either in themselves or in others. It's not likely that we'll recognize corrupted judgement in ourselves however, because we would be judging our judgement based on corrupted judgement. That would be the ultimate horrible situation, to be corrupt in judgement and not able to see.

    I just want to let you know that I don't dislike you personally, I'm just so angry that neither of us can understand each other. It seems like we should be able to, but just keep missing it.
    I like you and I am not angry at all. I did get frustrated earlier in the thread when I felt like people were still accusing me of being totally rude and cutting people, when I make special effort to not do that, but other than that, I am just honestly expressing thoughts. I am not intending to offend, but rather to show where I am coming from.

  5. #15
    Member Buds of May's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    So can someone build a house on a cracked foundation and not expect problems down the road? It is the same for flawed or corrupted judgement. If the foundation for judgements is bad, the outcomes cannot be expected to be good.
    It's more a matter of how significant are the cracks. Actual building foundations have minor fissures. What can you do about it? If you have something that's likely to cause problems, then you try to fix it, or you lay a new foundation. Just like you can't afford to sweat every pathogen you encounter, but you can take steps to optimize your health.

  6. #16
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buds of May View Post
    Just like you can't afford to sweat every pathogen you encounter, but you can take steps to optimize your health.
    Yes, I agree but it would be self destructive not to wash hands after touching raw meat or going to the bathroom.

    If use the building analogy, I mean structurally signifigant cracks, not minor fissures.

  7. #17
    Member Buds of May's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Yes, I agree but it would be self destructive not to wash hands after touching raw meat or going to the bathroom.

    If use the building analogy, I mean structurally signifigant cracks, not minor fissures.
    So what's the difference in terms of judgement errors? Which are insignificant, if not the "thin" thing?

  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am talking about when one can recognize that judgement is corrupt, either in themselves or in others. It's not likely that we'll recognize corrupted judgement in ourselves however, because we would be judging our judgement based on corrupted judgement. That would be the ultimate horrible situation, to be corrupt in judgement and not able to see.
    I agree. That would be bad.

    Now I see what it was! My idea of "flawed" contained three different ideas, yours only had one. To me, a judgment can be flawed if its illogical/incorrect, socially unacceptable, or potentially detrimental to something I care about in a way not related to the other two. For instance, the person in question in my first example would have been flawed from a logical perspective (because what he said was untrue), but correct from an emotional perspective (because he knew how she would feel if he said otherwise). Since his answer wasn't detrimental to the person (not knowing her actual weight/appearence won't harm her, if she believed him, which she probably didn't). So I would let it go.

    So to me, a thing can be flawed in one of three ways, and which is most important depends on the nature of the situation. To you, flawed is the same as morally corrupt in an absolute sense with clearly defined values, while to me it's not.

    I like you and I am not angry at all. I did get frustrated earlier in the thread when I felt like people were still accusing me of being totally rude and cutting people, when I make special effort to not do that, but other than that, I am just honestly expressing thoughts. I am not intending to offend, but rather to show where I am coming from.
    I'm so glad to hear that. And I think we've got it very close to settled now. What do you think?

  9. #19
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buds of May View Post
    It's more a matter of how significant are the cracks. Actual building foundations have minor fissures. What can you do about it? If you have something that's likely to cause problems, then you try to fix it, or you lay a new foundation. Just like you can't afford to sweat every pathogen you encounter, but you can take steps to optimize your health.
    By the way Buds of May...that building analogy of Heart's is also very similar to a biblical reference.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  10. #20
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buds of May View Post
    So what's the difference in terms of judgement errors? Which are insignificant, if not the "thin" thing?
    Anyone can make an error, but some people have their judgement flawed at its core. So not just one action, but the basis for all their actions rest on something not quite right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    By the way Buds of May...that building analogy of Heart's is also very similar to a biblical reference.
    There's no religious connotation meant on my end. What next, is someone going say I am illuminati because it sounds masonic?

Similar Threads

  1. [Enne] Idealized self-image and type 4
    By Fay in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-31-2016, 10:26 AM
  2. [INTJ] Stuttering, Poor Self-Image and Resultant Lack of Confidence in an INTJ?
    By Far7anR in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-01-2014, 03:15 PM
  3. [E4] Enneagram 4's and self-image
    By Julius_Van_Der_Beak in forum Enneatypes
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-25-2013, 08:38 PM
  4. [ENFJ] ENFJ self-image as exemplary human being
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 02-06-2011, 04:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO