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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    What you're saying is true about insults becoming insults upon receipt and not upon dispatch, but so what?
    Yes, in my mind one can make a case that if someone goes around calling everyone an a-hole all the time, it's everyone else's fault if they take it personally (because they could just 'ignore him')... but that is purely a theoretical outcome.

    Realistically, someone who would do that would be disruptive to community and soon ostracized. It's the probable outcome. It's how people actually work (so in this case theory is unrealistic).

    Communication means announcing your intentions ACCURATELY, and if you're going to purposefully and consistently use a particular vocabulary or style that others will react to in a way you didn't intend, then you're not communicating well.

    (Sorry, I've deviated away from Victor here and am just making a general case about Nadir's comment.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's interesting isn't it. First I stir a negative reaction in you, then I have a choice, I can respond in kind with another negative reaction or I can save myself and you from the abyss of negativity.
    It's rather interesting. Because I wonder why you just don't avoid the negativity to start with, rather than having to pull back. (When someone starts out negative, I eventually will push... and expect a push back since that's where the pattern seemed to go. This is like an odd two-step, where one person steps away when the other steps forward.)

    I am not quite sure why I do this. Two things come to mind. First, I am attention seeking and second I raise the emotional temperature. I suspect it is because I fear I won't get what I want.
    It's possible. Fear is a motivation for a lot of behavior...

    So I think I am reacting to my perceived rejection. Of course I should reality test my perceived rejection to see how true it is. But in the meantime I limp along in my neurotic fashion. Alternating, interestingly, between rejection and acceptance.
    As far as I go, if I feel someone is being honest, making an effort to communicate (speak and listen), then I will engage. (This is why I've ignored some things you've written, but when you become honest like this, about your motivations and concerns, I can't really help but talk to you.) Some other people might not operate that way, but I've figured out that I do.

    In the meanwhile, I might push on your ideas, but there's no intended slight on you as a person if I challenge the things you've said.

    Often coming in with an idea and explaining how it works, without operating from the "fear" base (which tends to make people defensive or aggressive), and accepting challenges if the idea is a little different from the norm, usually results in the better communication.

    I can already tell that you're intelligent, so that is not an issue. I just want to see the underlying support for your ideas, which sometimes are presented in a way that seems needlessly antagonistic or aggressive. And if you're willing to take a little risk by just offering your ideas instead of pushing them (leaving it up to the listener to accept or reject), I know I'll meet you in the middle.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Very well -- thanks for detailing your views on the matter, Geoff! As I've said, I've no interest in attempting to change anyone's beliefs, -- I might as well try to move mountains; and even I did, the difference long-term would be admittedly marginal, given that the "man on the street" system, for all its insufficiencies, seems to be the universally adopted one and does work adequately, except in some cases like this here -- so I hope you don't mind if I continue to watch this thread from the sidelines and see what comes up.

    EDIT: Ah, Jennifer, you responded while I was posting this reply -- yes, what you say dovetails with my and Geoff's posts about forum dynamics. The only thing I'd argue against would be Victor calling everyone a-holes (I know that you meant this term generally; but still there's nothing directly lambasting other members in his posts, which is what calling others a-holes would accomplish.)
    Last edited by Nadir; 05-21-2008 at 08:45 AM. Reason: ballasting =/= lambasting, lol
    Not really.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Imagine if all the narcissistic energy put into MBTI and therapy were put into learning another language.
    Why do you link MBTI and therapy?

    And why are both to be considered narcissistic?

    I've never considered that striving for self-actualistion may be considered narcissistic...

    Mind you if it is, then there is very little that isn't narcissistic...

  4. #34
    Junior Member Emergency Exit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The very assumption of therapy is that there is something wrong with you. And guess what, therapy can fix you.Victor.
    Yes, this is one way of looking at it....We can also look from the perspective that therapy looks for the mental habits that are not working for the benefit of a person, and tries to improve them/replace them with more effective habits.* So, in that sense, it's not trying to "fix" them, but rather, improve there daily quality of life.
    Also, perhaps the reason that there are so many different types of therapy, and so many books available, is that there are just so many different types of people around. And different people will respond differently to each method?
    Last edited by Emergency Exit; 05-21-2008 at 09:56 AM. Reason: i don't understand how to put a new paragraph space in?!

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Seeing as this is becoming a question of responsibilities I'll change my tac.
    Want a Tic-Tac?

    America places the responsibility on the speaker more than the listener.
    England place the responsibility on the listener more than the speaker.

    E vs I.
    Yes. Explain.

    (Although I'm guessing you're saying it is "E" for the speaker to tailor things to fit a bulk crowd, and "I" for the solitary listener to subjectively pull info inside and evaluate it there, in relation to themselves. E's might try to take more responsibility for the listeners' reactions, I's are less inclined. I think that's quite a bit simplistic, although interesting.)

    The reality is though that the responsibility is for both people to try to elevate the communication.
    QFT
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    I'd like to play Devil's Advocate and say that it might not be a case of different books for different people, but different books for the same person, ie, someone who reads many books trying to figure out a solution to his/her problems. I wouldn't call it an addiction, more like a strategy that may not work very well.

    Some people get stuck only reading books about self-improvement or awareness, just as some people get stuck only going to therapy or talking about themselves to friends or going to workshops.

    Improving ones life should be a two-pronged approach - some reflection, some action. If your life isn't working, it makes sense to reflect on the whys. But trying new things and focusing on something other than your problems also makes sense. Improvement can come from stepping outside yourself and viewing things from a new perspective. Vacations, new friendships, volunteering, mentoring and taking up a challenge at work or in your community all can serve this function.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    I'd like to play Devil's Advocate and say that it might not be a case of different books for different people, but different books for the same person, ie, someone who reads many books trying to figure out a solution to his/her problems. I wouldn't call it an addiction, more like a strategy that may not work very well.

    Some people get stuck only reading books about self-improvement or awareness, just as some people get stuck only going to therapy or talking about themselves to friends or going to workshops.

    Improving ones life should be a two-pronged approach - some reflection, some action. If your life isn't working, it makes sense to reflect on the whys. But trying new things and focusing on something other than your problems also makes sense. Improvement can come from stepping outside yourself and viewing things from a new perspective. Vacations, new friendships, volunteering, mentoring and taking up a challenge at work or in your community all can serve this function.

    Jae Rae
    I do agree with victor's implict suggestion, that self-help and thearpy can become an excuse to actually stop taking responsibilty for ones self. I want to improve my life; so i read these books. That is fine as long as some of the action you mention comes along, it is doesn't then it does become similar to an addiction; a cycle to distract or comfort the individual so they don't actually have to face what they need to do.

  8. #38
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    I do agree with victor's implict suggestion, that self-help and thearpy can become an excuse to actually stop taking responsibilty for ones self. I want to improve my life; so i read these books. That is fine as long as some of the action you mention comes along, it is doesn't then it does become similar to an addiction; a cycle to distract or comfort the individual so they don't actually have to face what they need to do.
    It's a big step from there to "things about which people write books" being evidence for the invalidity of the subject matter.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    It's a big step from there to "things about which people write books" being evidence for the invalidity of the subject matter.
    Oh yes, I quite agree, I didn't mean to reduce the significance of the subject, just suggest that Victor has described something I have noticed about some (not all) the people who have used or rather perhaps I should read and then didn't use, these types of books.

  10. #40
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    While I find Victor annoying and boring he’s not entirely wrong. We are accustomed to buying into what we’re fed. This is the very reason that I can’t stand Oprah. Whenever she recommends anything, people run right out and buy it. Watching her audience is like watching a herd of sheep.

    As for therapy, it’s never worked out well for me but some really need it. I hate self help books now but went through a phase when I was younger where I read a lot of them. If you have serious mental issues and you don’t know what do to, then you really should find yourself a good therapist. A deeply depressed suicidal person doesn’t need to find a quiet place to figure out what to do with their life, they need help. I also believe that we rely more on therapy in the US, than they do in other countries.

    I agree with bananatrombones about MBTI, take the good bits and toss the others aside. It’s a good indicator but should be canceled out when mental issues (bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, etc) are present. I also think you can somewhat change your type depending on your upbringing and surroundings.

    As for Victor, I believe he's either seeking an outlet for his voice to be heard, trolling or both.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

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