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  1. #21
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Which culture shows deference by talking down to people like they're unenlightened ignoramuses, exactly? Yours of Nadir's?
    Eh -- I'm simply commenting... and that you perceive yourself to be treated as an unenlightened ignoramus (the phrase sounds impressive, I'll give you that) is not something that Victor's original post implied, but something you decided to take upon yourself, and that is what I'm wondering. Same deal with the "howling" -- what howling? What good is that characterization, seeing how it's fueled by a very subjective judgment?
    Not really.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I too, am from a different culture... this isn't about deference. It is about making blanket statements that are designed to have shock value and... more likely to create lack of respect.. the patronising suggestion that others don't understand what you believe you are (near) alone in doing. It's no wonder that people react in such a way to these sort of comments.

    Classic examples are you stating the reasoning behind other people's comments - like "you say these things because you don't like me". Have you noticed how often people react and point out you misunderstand them, or their motives when you say such things? One learns by asking of others, not prescribing their own intentions and motives to them.

    On the subject of deference... you pointed out earlier in the thread that you choose to talk down to others eg Edahn, to get a reaction. You will be hard pushed to find a culture, Australian or otherwise, where talking down to someone will elicit a worthwhile response.
    Good heavens, here parents talk down to children.

    So here when you are being spoken down to you are being loved and cared for.

    In another country it is exactly the opposite way around.

    No wonder we have constant misundersanding.

    The answer is to learn about cultural difference.

    And the best way to do that is to learn another language.

    Imagine if all the narcissistic energy put into MBTI and therapy were put into learning another language.

    Imagine if Paris Hilton learnt another language rather than sloping off with the "Power of Now".

    And if Paris, why not us?

    Victor.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    They tell me, dear Jennifer, that you know you have arrived when you have been parodied. And you have made a lovely parody.
    Oh, nice save.

    (Actually, since I wasn't expecting that response from you, it did make me smile.)


    ... meanwhile, I think I'll sit here and absorb the multi-cultural discussion, which I find interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Actually Victor may have a point with reference to the self-perpetuating and circular nature of therapy. RD Laing had a view on conventional therapy back in the 60s which largely agreed with the view if you look for something wrong you'll find it.
    Which actually isn't inaccurate to some degree. It's difficult to tell sometimes whether a problem truly exists or the act of labeling it actually ends up perpetuating it and strengthening it.

    I'm reading an interesting book by Robert Oxnam right now, who claims to be a dissociative who is being / has been reintegrated. I honestly don't know what I think, because the style in which it is written does not give me the evidence I need to judge the veracity of the account. It's hard to tell whether the narrative actually did exist or whether it was woven by Oxnam and the therapist after the fact -- not as purposeful deceit, but because the diagnosis was made and so the patient conformed to the diagnosis.

    But if you want an extreme case, we could discuss "repressed memories" of sexual abuse that were became part of a therapeutic epidemic in the late 80's and early/mid 90's. Just devastating... and it's probable that those, along with just about all the repressed memories of Satanic ritual abuse, were created by the therapists putting labels on things and the patient conforming.

    Nowadays it is far more subtle, whether it's diagnoses of depression or bipolar (that's a popular one now). It doesn't mean the conditions don't exist. It's just hard to tell whether a particular patient has it or has it more strongly than they should because of the narrative attached.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    What I don't quite understand is the affronted reactions that characterize most of Victor's threads. I don't necessarily agree with what he's saying but I don't know why it is that he's either ignored completely or shot down just because his opinions happen to be different.
    Actually, my involuntary response is very similar to Edahn's, as he described it in his earlier posts. Sorry, but it simply is... for the same reasons he expressed.

    However, when Victor continues the conversation, I find myself simultaneously amused (pleasantly) and a little endeared. His honesty was refreshing. So it does make his initial salvos seem to be more an attempt to get attention/response, after which a real conversation can occur.

    But still, even knowing that, the initial post usually pisses me off, and I also want to rip off his name that he insists on signing at the end of his posts. Arg....

    I have to admit, he might be one up on Bluewing as far as style goes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    That's easy. For instance, if someone tells you that they are telling the truth, what is your reaction? Just as it is your choice to believe if someone is telling you the truth or telling you lies, independent of that statement, I would suggest that his saying that he talks down to people does not mean anything as long as people aren't offended.
    You're right that the fact that he says he tries to put people down doesn't PROVE that he's offensive, but it does lend a lot of support to the idea that people perceive his comments as condescending. It certainly doesn't prove the opposite, that he's not condescending.

    What you're saying is true about insults becoming insults upon receipt and not upon dispatch, but so what?

    Even discarding this... what is it that I'm not reading carefully? We read the same words... but our interpretations differ.
    The way he always tries to separate himself from the rest of us and give us advice as if he's some kind of guru who's not stoned off his ass. Pay attention to the pronouns and tone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Eh -- I'm simply commenting... and that you perceive yourself to be treated as an unenlightened ignoramus (the phrase sounds impressive, I'll give you that) is not something that Victor's original post implied, but something you decided to take upon yourself, and that is what I'm wondering.
    I don't perceive myself to be anything Victor says. It's HIS perception that causes friction between him and the site. He asserts himself as an outsider who has come to save us. If any religious fundamentalist came to this site to tell us that we're all fucked up and he's here to give us advice, I would tell him to fuck off and ban him without hesitation. It's the same deal with Victor, except his delivery is a bit more muted and he contributes in some other ways. (And he seems like he's got some other things going on, to me, anyway.) It's not that we would take the fundamentalists' words as gospel (ha), but it's annoying, which is exactly what I said up above.

    Same deal with the "howling" -- what howling? What good is that characterization, seeing how it's fueled by a very subjective judgment?
    It was intended to be a metaphor to help him understand his own behavior. The howling is a cry for attention because he can't stand the uncertainty of not knowing whether he'll be accepted into the community. I tried to tell him that he can give it a rest and that our community is pretty open.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, nice save.

    (Actually, since I wasn't expecting that response from you, it did make me smile.)
    It's interesting isn't it. First I stir a negative reaction in you, then I have a choice, I can respond in kind with another negative reaction or I can save myself and you from the abyss of negativity.

    I am not quite sure why I do this. Two things come to mind. First, I am attention seeking and second I raise the emotional temperature.

    I suspect it is because I fear I won't get what I want.

    So what do I want?

    I want to do a formal exercise called Empathy Practice.

    However Empathy Practice requires some ego strength and some lack of ego defensiveness. Otherwise it is best not to continue.

    So I think I am reacting to my perceived rejection.

    Of course I should reality test my perceived rejection to see how true it is.

    But in the meantime I limp along in my neurotic fashion.

    Alternating, interestingly, between rejection and acceptance.

    So you might say, Jennifer, I am exploring the edge of rejection and acceptance in my own mind.

    And you are kind enough to lend me your mind for a while.

  6. #26
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Good heavens, here parents talk down to children.

    So here when you are being spoken down to you are being loved and cared for.

    In another country it is exactly the opposite way around.

    No wonder we have constant misundersanding.
    Parents talk down to children only while they are not mature enough to hold their own opinion. As soon as they are, it is seen as patronising. Given that you aren't our parent, and that we are old enough to have an opinion, talking down is patronising. Do you know this, and just like to argue?

  7. #27
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    The admission of talking down to anyone does not mean anything in isolation. Someone needs to disapprove of it first. It's the perceiver's choice to be offended... at which point the concept of "talking down to people" rears its head. It was you, originally, that accused him of being didactic and condenscending, i.e. "talking down to others."
    Well, he admitted to talking down to others, and why he does it.

    See, it's an old argument, and a rather poor one, that an insult is only an insult if someone takes offence. I think the "man in the street" test is more appropriate here. if a typical person would find something offensive, then it probably is. Just because one person does, or does not take an insult, does not change how this is viewed in a public environment like this.

    It's for just that reason that we don't allow members who would like to, to post and swap offensive images in a thread - there is a larger grouping than the individuals immediately involved - there is a wider audience, often a silent one.

  8. #28
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Victor you ain't weird, quite the opposite for an INTJ really Oh and if you're a troll then I want a forum full of trolls.

    You've challenged the basis of the why behind the MBTI and that's a good thing in my book. It shows intelligence and an inquisitive mind.. I love it... please continue... even if you are wrong (baiting INTJs 101 )

    Oh and no matter how many times you write it you ain't the victor
    Nice choice of name though... given or chosen it suits your personality well.

    Btw, what part of the human condition is not addiction by your philosophy?
    Even logic is an addiction. Hell living could be called an addiction as are we not so stubborn about giving it up?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #29
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Well, he admitted to talking down to others, and why he does it.

    See, it's an old argument, and a rather poor one, that an insult is only an insult if someone takes offence. I think the "man in the street" test is more appropriate here. if a typical person would find something offensive, then it probably is. Just because one person does, or does not take an insult, does not change how this is viewed in a public environment like this.

    It's for just that reason that we don't allow members who would like to, to post and swap offensive images in a thread - there is a larger grouping than the individuals immediately involved - there is a wider audience, often a silent one.
    I wasn't originally going to respond to Edahn's follow up post and this post (perhaps in private message) because there's a very identifiable difference in opinions and I can respect your and Edahn's thoughts on this matter. However, I would like to contest something -- my argument is not old, and it is not poor -- it's only one you disagree with... and that fact alone does not make it old and poor. I have a feeling that you'll agree with me on this matter, and I thought it was an important distinction to make.

    Your post I quoted is more about forum dynamics than the validity of my arguments. I made another post about the necessity of "sweeping under the rug" where forum dynamics are concerned, recently -- and this is one of the things that's swept under to rug to help the forum function. The "man on the street" approach towards offensive matter is a simple shortcut, and it is not "better" and "more valid" than what I said, it's just streamlined -- like in the example you gave, the reason you remove those pictures is not because you're absolutely certain people would be offended even if the offense is unvoiced -- it's something you assume, with help from the man on the street, simply because taking any other way would be a lot less efficient way of handling things.
    Not really.

  10. #30
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    I wasn't originally going to respond to Edahn's follow up post and this post (perhaps in private message) because there's a very identifiable difference in opinions and I can respect your and Edahn's thoughts on this matter. However, I would like to contest something -- my argument is not old, and it is not poor -- it's only one you disagree with... and that fact alone does not make it old and poor. I have a feeling that you'll agree with me on this matter, and I thought it was an important distinction to make.

    Your post I quoted is more about forum dynamics than the validity of my arguments. I made another post about the necessity of "sweeping under the rug" where forum dynamics are concerned, recently -- and this is one of the things that's swept under to rug to help the forum function. The "man on the street" approach towards offensive matter is a simple shortcut, and it is not "better" and "more valid" than what I said, it's just streamlined -- like in the example you gave, the reason you remove those pictures is not because you're absolutely certain people would be offended even if the offense is unvoiced -- it's something you assume, with help from the man on the street, simply because taking any other way would be a lot less efficient way of handling things.
    Yes, I do agree. The man on the street is a shortcut to setting an acceptable level of conduct in a large public environment. In reality it's about the only viable way to a working system.

    When i said that an insult is only an insult if insult is taken or meant is poor, I meant it is often used poorly. Those who fling insults around will often claim that "it's your fault for taking offense!".. and similarly, those who take offense will claim "it's your fault for not realising I'd take offense!". Both of these make for a good case for the man in the street (what is called in the UK "the man on the clapham omnibus") test. I'd describe this as :

    -would the man in the street say the person flinging an insult ought to have known it is insulting? If so, it's an insult.
    -would the man in the street say the recipient ought to have felt insulted? If not, they are being oversensitive.

    Of course, one tries to flex this to individual circumstances, but I guess I have heard the "it's your fault for being offended" from trolls too many times to see it as anything other than poor and tired. Not, by the way, what I am implying to what you said, or indeed to Victor's style - this is (or was) a general segue down a side alley.

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