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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Darren Brown did a show in which he convinced a guy he was responsible for a murder by planting false memories. I thought it was a terrible thing to do for entertainment and hoped that it was lies and trickery with a convincing actor involved in it all.

    Although Brown has done the show on christian tele evangelism to undermine faith in God and I think moved on to undermining faith in human nature now aswell.

    On one or two occasions I've had insanely vivid dreams about having been involved in or having knowledge of or witnessing a murder, so vivid that when I woke I sort of believed they could be memories, I almost believed it was a repressed memory but I talked with my parents and they were like WTF, you'd know if you'd killed someone eejit. In time I realised that a lot of TV shows which featured this theme on around about the time I was "recalling" these memories from and I think that I'd internalised some of these as "truth".

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    honestly, I don't really care whether something "undermines" something else; if it is false, then it deserves to be replaced by something containing more truth. That kind of attitude where one fears to undermine something because evidence leads elsewhere is what perpetuates subjective morality and justification for any practice as long as it serves the ends of the people involved.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    honestly, I don't really care whether something "undermines" something else; if it is false, then it deserves to be replaced by something containing more truth. That kind of attitude where one fears to undermine something because evidence leads elsewhere is what perpetuates subjective morality and justification for any practice as long as it serves the ends of the people involved.
    Hmmm.

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmmm.
    Hmmm? I thought you'd support this, based on your overt post trail here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hmmm? I thought you'd support this, based on your overt post trail here.
    Its almost an exact statement of what is actually my beliefs, if we believe the same thing then there has got to be an intractable difference in what is meant by objective and subjective morality because obviously you'd believe yours objective and mine subjective and I believe the exact opposite.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    That's kind of my point, as we both would state this to be truth but to me you seem to weight tradition and established practice as truthful because of their precedence, whereas i'm more concerned about them reflecting how they actually play out for good or ill.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's kind of my point, as we both would state this to be truth but to me you seem to weight tradition and established practice as truthful because of their precedence, whereas i'm more concerned about them reflecting how they actually play out for good or ill.
    There is a division between tradition and innovation, I do reject innovation if I think it threatens what I see tradition as having served, often in an unacknowledged and "anonymous" way, not because it is simply contra tradition. I also use that word tradition in a sociological or normative sense, not in an ideological, identity or prefabricated way.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I don't know if this involved planting memories, but it does involve one of the most horrific abuses by state employees of all time.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/wenatche.htm
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Jennifer

    This is what happens in dogged pursuit of 'right' and 'justice'.

    At a certain level it creates divisions and everyone gets harmed, including the bystanders and victims.

    For example they take a child who doesn't know what is going on and start asking them questions, like "did so and so hurt you" and the child is just uncomfortable because it's really weird to be asked those questions for no apparent reason. The interviewers take this discomfort as hiding or repressing some form of abuse, and they persist, and persist, trying to get a 'truth' that they are already looking for which in some cases isn't even there.

    Honestly, people who constantly look for wrong are either going to find it, or cause it.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Even better: the interrogation technique where a social worker takes a "victim of child abuse" on a little drive around town, digging him or her in the side with a sharp object whenever the "wrong" answer is given.

    A little torture - I mean, encouragement - never hurts a government case, right? And the child will be afraid to tell anybody about it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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