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  1. #51
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I agree actually. However as with anything there is a limit and a fine line.

    The fine line here is the one between accurately pointing out and making aware to people's minds the discrepancies in what they might blindly believe otherwise...and just being a sad, attention seeking fool who is as mired by his/her delusions as he/she would proclaim others to be.

    It's like optimism and pessimism. They are just two sides of the same coin; the only difference is pessimism likes to pretend it is somehow wiser and more intelligent.

    All it really comes down to is that one wears rose-tinted spectacles and the other one wears shit-smeared sewer goggles.

    The biggest delusion of all is the belief that your truth is more real than anyone elses. To me that is the core of any kind of 'critical thinking': being able to turn it on yourself just as you would do the world.

    But of course there are sometimes more superficial reasons; some people just enjoy sparking a bit of outrage or attacking the commonly held views of a majority. It's easiest of all on a forum like this where the focus and views are centrified on one particular range of subjects.

    It's also interesting to see under what banner such a person might champion. Often it is one of empiricism; that the measurement, observation and comparison of testable realities is superior to all other methods and defeats that which cannot be wholly tested and if it cannot be tested or measured then it is nothing more than a childish fantasy. Other times it is the 'end is nigh' style, where those in a forum are considered to be deluded to their own detriment, blind to the folly into which they would gladly throw themselves and thus here our saviour makes his entrance, slaying falsity and self-denial with his mental blade of truth.

    It's a fun world...
    Very interesting. Many of those types also really enjoy arguing and really enjoy being correct, and will attack your points instead of listening to you almost for fun. For me it is not always about being perfectly correct, because what is that anyways. When I am discussing something abstract, which I often am, I get very irritated when whoever I'm talking with interrupts my explanation to blather about details that I feel are rather irrelevant to my point. I think some types do not like to listen to you and put aside their thoughts to understand you. I am very forgiving when listening to others because intuitively I can pretty much grasp what they are getting at whether or not they are presenting their idea "correctly".

    That said, I do have quite a lot of friends who are that way. I think I have tendencies like that, where I can see easily where an argument is flawed or where extra factors could be considered. There's a time and a place for it, though.

  2. #52
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    If you taught a course on critical thinking at the local community college, I'd probably enroll for a laugh.
    Actually, linking critical thinking and the suspension of disbelief is a minor act of genius. It is seminal and leads to whole fields of insight and interesting new questions.

    Sneering at me seems a little jeune.

  3. #53
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Actually, linking critical thinking and the suspension of disbelief is a minor act of genius. It is seminal and leads to whole fields of insight and interesting new questions.

    Sneering at me seems a little jeune.
    Do you talk this way in real life? That would be interesting to see.

    The world needs a bit more verbal poetry.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #54
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Actually, linking critical thinking and the suspension of disbelief is a minor act of genius. It is seminal and leads to whole fields of insight and interesting new questions.

    Sneering at me seems a little jeune.
    If you do say so yourself. What you do ends up nullifying the critical portion of critical thinking. Of course, it takes critical thinking to be able to realize that.

    I don't begrudge people doing whatever it is that turns them on, but I do get irritated when people try to market it as something other than that.

  5. #55
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    If you do say so yourself. What you do ends up nullifying the critical portion of critical thinking. Of course, it takes critical thinking to be able to realize that.

    I don't begrudge people doing whatever it is that turns them on, but I do get irritated when people try to market it as something other than that.
    What do you mean? "Let's say that this is true, even though I don't think it to be so. What would that mean?" Doesn't that sound like critical thinking?

  6. #56
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Actually, linking critical thinking and the suspension of disbelief is a minor act of genius. It is seminal and leads to whole fields of insight and interesting new questions.

    Sneering at me seems a little jeune.
    If you say so. I expect you're just too damn seminal for little old me.
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

    I'd be a card-carrying sensotard, but I can't find the goddamn card.

  7. #57
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What do you mean? "Let's say that this is true, even though I don't think it to be so. What would that mean?" Doesn't that sound like critical thinking?
    Critical thinking also requires critical language. Suspension of disbelief is so much more than just propositioning that something is true for the use in analysis. That's such a simple concept, that I assume this isn't what @Victor was referring to as genius?

    Suspension of disbelief is really the act of ignoring what you know to be true to be able to accept an idea, a supposition.. usually because you like the idea so damned much. Anyway, I'd need some clarification.. since I suppose since you can have a different read on it, I can only assume I know what Victor is talking about.

  8. #58
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What do you mean? "Let's say that this is true, even though I don't think it to be so. What would that mean?" Doesn't that sound like critical thinking?
    Hm, I'd say that the bit you do *after* that is the critical thinking. Being able to posit a counterfactual doesn't really require any strenuous analysis IMO.
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

    I'd be a card-carrying sensotard, but I can't find the goddamn card.

  9. #59
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Critical thinking also requires critical language. Suspension of disbelief is so much more than just propositioning that something is true for the use in analysis. That's such a simple concept, that I assume this isn't what @Victor was referring to as genius?

    Suspension of disbelief is really the act of ignoring what you know to be true to be able to accept an idea, a supposition.. usually because you like the idea so damned much. Anyway, I'd need some clarification.. since I suppose since you can have a different read on it, I can only assume I know what Victor is talking about.
    True. However, there are deeper areas of analysis that start from counterfactuals. It starts to break into epistemological questions - how is it that I know this is true? How is it that I can know this is true? Eventually, you may get to the point where it seems that any sort of functioning in this universe requires a suspension of disbelief on some level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philosorapteuse View Post
    Hm, I'd say that the bit you do *after* that is the critical thinking. Being able to posit a counterfactual doesn't really require any strenuous analysis IMO.
    Possibly, but one of the important things going on there is the understanding that you think something to be one way, while the possibility still exists for it to be another. Ultimately, you cannot make any absolute claim to knowing the truth. You only can believe something based on particular evidence. That's the linkage, IMO.

  10. #60
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    True. However, there are deeper areas of analysis that start from counterfactuals. It starts to break into epistemological questions - how is it that I know this is true? How is it that I can know this is true? Eventually, you may get to the point where it seems that any sort of functioning in this universe requires a suspension of disbelief on some level.

    Possibly, but one of the important things going on there is the understanding that you think something to be one way, while the possibility still exists for it to be another. Ultimately, you cannot make any absolute claim to knowing the truth. You only can believe something based on particular evidence. That's the linkage, IMO.
    See, but words like analysis and counterfactual have such dispassionate qualities to them, because you are using these processes and concepts to discover truth.. or even discover the attributes of truth. Suspension of disbelief is an act to define truth, perhaps only even temporarily, for a personal agenda. The idea has a certain man against the universe lyrical beauty to it (see, linking it to the subject of this thread), but is like oil to critical thinking's water.

    Anyway, we can't really know what we're arguing until we know what he believes is the connection between Suspension of Disbelief and Critical Thinking. And what he means by Suspension of Disbelief. @Victor, care to explain?

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