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  1. #1
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Default Depression and causation

    I was having a im conversation with an INTP friend of mine...we were discussing Depression...here's part of the convo:

    him (11:29:25 PM): i forget where i was reading.. but said depression and any other "mental" condition is really caused by toxins & parasites
    Auto response from me(11:29:25 PM): I'm so close to tears
    and so close to simply calling you
    up and simply suggesting...

    me(11:29:41 PM): hmmmm i don't really believe that.
    me(11:30:12 PM): do you?
    him (11:30:39 PM): idk
    him (11:31:53 PM): we know people in general arent happy because they have no relationship with god
    me (11:32:00 PM): to much of what goes on in the brain is chemical. while they may interfere i don't think toxins and parasites are the cause..perhaps an additional reason.
    him(11:32:16 PM): but this was talking about clinical conditions
    me (11:32:21 PM): ah
    him (11:33:02 PM): the brain still relies on a proper diet to function correctly
    him (11:33:07 PM): just like any other organ
    me (11:33:55 PM): i remember reading somewhere about depression that some depression is because of the way people are living their lives...and then there is the chemical depression. yes i agree with that (properdiet and such) Even with autism you can moderate symtoms by diet (not cure) but def make a bit more manageable.
    him (11:34:57 PM): to me the chemical kind is the most physical
    me (11:35:07 PM): ?more....
    him (11:37:31 PM): we get emotionally or spiritually depressed.. even those have an effect on our physical minds and bodies.. theres no such thing as "in our head"
    him (11:38:00 PM): so without any outside influencing factor, the depression has to have a physical cause
    him (11:38:42 PM): the term "chemical imbalance" was invented by chemists who want to sell chemicals to "rebalance"
    him (11:39:13 PM): it really isnt proven at all
    me (11:39:27 PM): agree to some extent. however the connections that occur in our brains is electrical
    me (11:41:05 PM): and chemical. and in some people flawed. I understand what you're saying but I think..........

    Ok enough of that..what do you think is the greatest cause of depression?
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  2. #2
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I wish I had more time right now to discuss it... later for sure.

    I do not think we can find a "greatest cause of depression," I think the reasons and strength of them vary among people. We can discuss the various reasons, but it's not a direct correlation. Even with medication, the meds that work for one person might have no effect on another's depression.

    It is usually a multi-causal syndrome (from my experience), with impact from chemicals, diet, knowledge, behavior patterns, past experiences, outlook on life, reasoning capacity, and a host of such things.

    I can follow intellectually what your friend was saying. Emotionally, though, he sounds clueless. Has he experienced debilitating depression himself or is it simply one more intellectual exercise for him? Thinking about it is one thing; experiencing it is another.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #3
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I wish I had more time right now to discuss it... later for sure.

    I do not think we can find a "greatest cause of depression," I think the reasons and strength of them vary among people. We can discuss the various reasons, but it's not a direct correlation. Even with medication, the meds that work for one person might have no effect on another's depression.

    It is usually a multi-causal syndrome (from my experience), with impact from chemicals, diet, knowledge, behavior patterns, past experiences, outlook on life, reasoning capacity, and a host of such things.

    I can follow intellectually what your friend was saying. Emotionally, though, he sounds clueless. Has he experienced debilitating depression himself or is it simply one more intellectual exercise for him? Thinking about it is one thing; experiencing it is another.
    I tend to agree with you regarding the multi-causal syndrome. Yes he is emotionally clueless....sigh. Yes he has experienced depression himself and I think he wants to believe he can cure it with diet and such. Does not often give any leeway to his extremely surpressed Fe (by his own admission...cog process test...Fe virtually unused..something stupid like 0.01% or whatever. Anyway I know you don't have time now but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  4. #4
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    If I had to choose one that is psychological, I'd say maladjusted cognitive style. For example: overly negative view of oneself or others, high expectations about other people, catastrophized thinking, tendency to be critical and find fault in everything, believing that nothing will ever get better, etc.

    However, if you look at the bigger picture and the increasing rates of depression, there is for sure a much bigger sociological problem to this that is routed deep in our existing society and culture.

  5. #5
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    This one caught my attention:
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    him (11:31:53 PM): we know people in general arent happy because they have no relationship with god
    Yeah, depression is a chemical imbalance, but I think that it's caused by behaviors. If you spend too much time focused on the trees, and never step back to look at the forest, you forget that a forest even exists. For example, you can eat all the right foods and take all the right drugs, but if you sit at your computer 24/7, you'll still be out of balance.

    God, to me, is the interconnectedness of everything. Everything has an affect on everything else, and these interactions are a large part of god. Without stepping back to see the forest, you can't see god.

    Seeing the forest is easier said than done. When you're depressed you don't want to sit outside and just enjoy the day, because everything becomes meaningless, or hostile. You lose your trust in people, and focus on how everything is bad in relation to you. Getting out of it requires family and friends who will be there for you emotionally, as well as a concerted effort on your own part to bring yourself back up. Recognize that telling yourself those depressing thoughts are harmful and hurtful, and that you're wrong -- don't believe it when your mind tells you that you suck!

  6. #6
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    .
    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 09-12-2007 at 03:53 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    You know, happiness is a chemical "imbalance" too.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    However, if you look at the bigger picture and the increasing rates of depression, there is for sure a much bigger sociological problem to this that is routed deep in our existing society and culture.
    Maverick, do you know if other countries with a lesser level of technology have a high rate of depression?

    I am curious about such things, in that does ennui and boredom and a lack of daily purpose contribute to the depression psychologically, since we expect a level of satisfaction and contentment above what is actually realistic? In cultures where one must simply worry about survival, or cultures where everyone is firmly integrated into family or relationships, is depression as large an issue?

    I know those are hard things to study, due to the multitude of factors involved. Some people might be the equivalent of depressed but not even recognize it as such or simply try to ignore it, because other needs are more pressing. it seems, with all the extra time and opportunities for pleasure and fun on our hands here, we have much more time to be AWARE of the depression and thus it looms even larger.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    You know, happiness is a chemical "imbalance" too.
    I could definitely use more of THAT drug.

    <puzzled stare>
    Hmmm, you look different, did you do something with your hair?


    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I heard once that clinical depression results from an absence of certain chemicals in the brain. As such it may well be an unmedicated view of life.
    The typical antidepressants (Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Effexor, etc.) as a rule generally focus on three general types of chemicals in the brain: Dopamine, Norepinephrine (?), and Serotonin. Dopamine is known to the mainstream world generally as the "pleasure pathway," noerpinephrine provides energy, and serotonin provides feelings of well-being. Note that these are actually "groupings," there are different TYPES of each as well within each group, and there are other chemicals; these are just the three that are commonly referenced.

    There are at least two basic ways to keep these chemicals in circulation longer: produce more of them, or reduce how quickly they are taken back out of circulation.

    The "uptake inhibitors" (the latter ones) fit into the receptacles designated for the targeted chemical. A serotonin uptake inhibitor thus "fills the slots" and prevents the real serotonin from being reabsorbed quickly, thus increasing the amount of active serotonin in the brain and you feel its effects more strongly.

    Wellbutrin impacts D and N, effexor impacts N and S, and I'm not sure of the others right now. But that's the gist, anyway.

    I heard once that clinical depression results from an absence of certain chemicals in the brain. As such it may well be an unmedicated view of life.

    As for diet, I haven't looked into the science of it but I sometimes wonder if people read more into it than is actually there. Maybe depressed people just feel more positive about themselves and their lives when they feel that there is something they can do to change their condition.

    Personally I think a lack of purpose in life is probably one of the bigger causes.
    god, yes.

    And depression feeds on itself -- you become more depressed because you feel like nothing you do can change how you're feeling, and you might even get mad and depressed at yourself for being such a worthless weak person for being depressed, and it just goes around and around...

    Exercise and diet actually do help the body to feel like it has more energy, thus helping with the depression.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hmmm, you look different, did you do something with your hair.
    New glasses.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #10
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    New glasses.
    snap!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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