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  1. #31
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Perhaps we can stop talking about "people with BPD" as if they are a monolith, on account of them not being a monolith.

    Anyway, I'm not arguing for the presence of HPD in the DSM. My original point was that we do, in fact, pathologize certain kinds of extraversion as well as introversion, which sucks.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    honey schizoaffective is in the bipolar spectrum, and on the severe end of the spectrum because it involves schizophrenic type symptoms; its not a personality disorder
    But a question to consider is, if you take a diagnosis out of the DSM, does it suddenly cease being a pathologized phenomenon? Will a person with schizoaffective disorder, should the disorder no longer be categorized, merely be imaginative/intense/in tune with a different or deeper or alternate reality (or some other language) (like a person with HPD is merely proud and confident)?

    There *is* a certain amount of arbitrariness to diagnoses; we have identified "normal" and "functional" and diagnosed what doesn't map up properly.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #33
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    honey schizoaffective is in the bipolar spectrum, and on the severe end of the spectrum because it involves schizophrenic type symptoms; its not a personality disorder
    sweety i know schizoaffective is not a personality disorder. I never said it was, and it's on the spectrum if its the bipolar subtype. and schizoaffective is a mood disorder AND schizophrenia, not schizophrenic like symptoms
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #34
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    @Eileen my sister is schizoaffective. When she is unmedicated she believes there are cameras in doorknobs and wears sweaters in the middle of summer.

    When she's medicated she is a sensible and hardworking yet artistically gifted ISFJ.

    My bffs mom was also schizoaffective and shot herself in the head in her early forties. She called my friends dad the devil and said his children were demon spawn and she bit my friend on the arm.

    Schizoaffective is one of the most debilitating psychiatric illnesses one can have, bc you have the mood problems of bipolar combined with schizophrenic hallucinations.

    Prplchknz may be a milder case, but I do know she has said she's heard voices.

    I believe if you're crippled by your illness you should seek help.

    I personally am cyclothymic, and I would not argue that I dont need help, because I asked for help, it was not forced upon me.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    My mother has schizoaffective disorder. I am familiar with it. Like I said, I think the DSM has its uses. But there is a certain amount of arbitrariness to it nonetheless.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #36
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    @Eileen I dont think there is anything arbitrary about someone who has very low functioning or dangerous behavior being called ill.

    Im flabbergasted that anyone even would suggested schizoaffective isn't an illness. Its not "being creative" it ruins peoples lives.

    Fortunately they have better meds now than they did 20 years ago so that my sister will not suffer the same fate as my friends mom, who was institutionalized for long periods of time, dependent, and then died by suicide, as well as abusing her children in the process.

    And meds do not change the real personality either. My sister was an ISFJ before she showed severe symptoms and took meds. She was always a very structured and self sacrificing high Fe individual, who said things like if she were wealthy she would still stay where she is from.

    She also does better art work and learns better when medicated.

    Ill argue for certain things being not necessarily pathological, but schizoaffective disorder is not one of them, I know better, and think its destructive to suggest otherwise.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    An interesting alternative perspective to consider re: hearing voices and other things we call hallucinations is the Hearing Voices Network.

    My mother was extremely sick for much of my childhood. Her proper medication and stress management has been essential for all of us. That said, I sometimes wonder if the phenomenon of hearing voices/seeing things/understanding things differently/what have you would be internalized and expressed differently in a context that didn't call it illness. It's hard to say. Schizophrenia is actually a worldwide phenomenon (there are, surprise! some mental illnesses identified in the DSM that do not appear to exist in other parts of the world) and it is certainly debilitating. But there's reason to believe that medication makes it permanently debilitating, while other approaches (like community supported approaches specifically in China) may allow for more normal, happy lives in between episodes.

    Obviously, I don't know the answer to all of these questions I have. I just wonder. And I hope for new treatments that won't ravage brains and lives so much as medications often do. It makes me sad that my mother will probably always be on medications that give her dry mouth and tremors (and it makes me sadder that lots of other people live with far, far worse).
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    @Marmie Dearest, my approach to most things is with an openness to learning more or considering things differently. My work now is in mental health; I take care to treat people first, regardless of what labels are attached to them.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #39
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    @Eileen I dont think meds are ravaging my sisters brain. If anything she could slip into catatonia or other severe schizophrenic symptoms if she is NOT medicated. Early treatment keeps it from getting worse.

    My friends mom didn't get the help she needed early enough.

    Meds help your brain to create normal pathways which is why some people can go off of them.

    The longer your pathways are making crazy, the less likely you are to "return."

    my sister sounded more sensible the last time I talked to her than she even did two years ago, just thinking ahead and making responsible decisions and being confident rather than lost

    shes able to live with her husband and takes care of her children

    my friends mom couldnt do that because of lack of meds and/or less advanced medicine

    and many unmedicated people do more damage to themselves with street drugs or large quantities of alcohol

  10. #40
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    I spent the last year working with people with severe and persistent mental illness out in the community. Perhaps there are some situations outside of *your experience* that lead *me* to believe something different from you!

    And you seem to read my posts rather selectively. I acknowledged the importance of medications (with stress management) in my family's experience, but I have read some things that make me wonder if there's a different way to help people living with severe and debilitating mental illness, as well as things that make me question whether "illness" is precisely the right word.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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