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  1. #11
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well now, just because something can be asued, such as statistics, doesnt mean it cant be used appropriately.

    The conclusion you draw is absurd aswell as mistaken.
    People interpret statistics to support their pre-suppositions. Something that is based on interpretation isn't a reflection of objective reality, only one's wishes and prejudices.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    People interpret statistics to support their pre-suppositions. Something that is based on interpretation isn't a reflection of objective reality, only one's wishes and prejudices.
    Which is the definition of bad research or the abuse of research.

    Its a different matter to a properly designed research methodology and testable hypothesis.

    I mean are you suggesting that the applied science which provides the evidence base for pharmocology or medicine, health services and treatment is all just subjective opinion?

    I know you, like a lot of kids who're looking for a firmer basis for rejecting your parents or society's expectations in hope of a shad, are pretty hot on nietzsche but its impossible to actually live with the full consequences of those beliefs.

  3. #13
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Which is the definition of bad research or the abuse of research.

    Its a different matter to a properly designed research methodology and testable hypothesis.

    I mean are you suggesting that the applied science which provides the evidence base for pharmocology or medicine, health services and treatment is all just subjective opinion?
    I know you, like a lot of kids who're looking for a firmer basis for rejecting your parents or society's expectations in hope of a shad, are pretty hot on nietzsche but its impossible to actually live with the full consequences of those beliefs.
    I don't believe that's what the OP had in mind. I was responding to that.
    That I have never stated anything about Nietzsche seems to have escaped your all-seeing eye.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I don't believe that's what the OP had in mind. I was responding to that.
    That I have never stated anything about Nietzsche seems to have escaped your all-seeing eye.
    I see the whole "there's no such thing as objectivity/objective order" as a legacy of Nietzsche, whether you mention him or not its in every post you make when you post like that.

    Whether as a response to the OP or not you said statistics were wrongful because they caused people to believe in an objective order. If there's no objective order and no objectivity there's no medicine or science.

  5. #15
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I see the whole "there's no such thing as objectivity/objective order" as a legacy of Nietzsche, whether you mention him or not its in every post you make when you post like that.

    Whether as a response to the OP or not you said statistics were wrongful because they caused people to believe in an objective order. If there's no objective order and no objectivity there's no medicine or science.
    I agree to an extent. But you mentioned pharmacology, and that's a good example of statistics and methodologies forming conclusions for profit rather than as a revelation of demonstrable truth. Look at anti-depressants: most are only marginally effective and not the panacea they are marketed to be. Big pharma has interpreted the studies in order to produce a foregone conclusion.
    What is ‘objectively’ true about anti-depressants? That depends on the prejudices of the interpreter.
    I’m not saying that science doesn’t often get it right or close, but it does not always.
    My comment originally was referring to the use of statistics in political discourse, which further proves my point.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I agree to an extent. But you mentioned pharmacology, and that's a good example of statistics and methodologies forming conclusions for profit rather than as a revelation of demonstrable truth. Look at anti-depressants: most are only marginally effective and not the panacea they are marketed to be. Big pharma has interpreted the studies in order to produce a foregone conclusion.
    What is ‘objectively’ true about anti-depressants? That depends on the prejudices of the interpreter.
    I’m not saying that science doesn’t often get it right or close, but it does not always.
    My comment originally was referring to the use of statistics in political discourse, which further proves my point.
    I believe your point was that there is no objective order, at least its what your original post was. Inserting caveats, conditions or contingent points or exceptions to the rule doesnt really change the fact that there is an objective reality.

    Its a hard one isnt it? On the one hand you'd like to embrace relativism or total subjectivism but on the other that undermines science which is a modern contra traditional thing too, you should probably think about this for a bit more.

  7. #17
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I believe your point was that there is no objective order, at least its what your original post was. Inserting caveats, conditions or contingent points or exceptions to the rule doesnt really change the fact that there is an objective reality.

    Its a hard one isnt it? On the one hand you'd like to embrace relativism or total subjectivism but on the other that undermines science which is a modern contra traditional thing too, you should probably think about this for a bit more.
    Oh, Lark, if you only could hear yourself.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Oh, Lark, if you only could hear yourself.
    So long as I dont sound anything like you I'd be pleased.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So long as I dont sound anything like you I'd be pleased.
    I rest my case.

  10. #20
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    This isn't about whether reality is objective or subjective; its about whether statistics are used in an objective or subjective way. I would argue that most (maybe even all) statistical analysis is based on subjective information or subjective interpretation, even things that should be based on cold hard facts.

    For instance, looks at a given study on, say, literacy rates. How is 'literacy' defined? How is it measured? What controls are in place? Did the person who sponsored/designed the study have a specific outcome in mind? These things create a lack of objectivity from the outset. Then you have things like data mining, people running the data through a number of statistical models until they get the results they want, etc. Even if you get through the actual research, you're going to have subjectivity come in through biased reporting or suppression, incorrect inferences, arguments about correlation and causation, and people just plain manipulating charts.

    Throw in a money motive, and you might as well just make it all up at you go for the accuracy you're going to get.

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