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Thread: Authenticity

  1. #31
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    What is fascinating is that MBTI itself is not authentic.

    MBTI says it is a psychometric measure of personality when it is a religious belief.

    It gets even more interesting as not only does MBTI falsely claim to be a psychometric measure but it denies being part of a religion.

    However MBTI is plausible.

    MBTI is believable because it says it is scientific and in the same breath says it is not a religion.

    This is just what we want to hear. And so this is just what we are told.
    The irony of this being posted by an INTJ is delicious
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #32
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    Default MBTI Works for Miilions of People

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The irony of this being posted by an INTJ is delicious
    The irony is not of my making - I was described as an INTJ - so I adopted it - like a nickname.

    However it is all beside the point. Because you can accept MBTI as a given or you can step outside the given or taken for granted - you can transcend MBTI.

    And you step outside MBTI in exactly the same way you step outside of any religious belief.

    First you learn the history of the belief and this will give you a pretty good idea of how it fits into society.

    Then you look at its psychological structure to see what needs it is meeting.

    Then you ask what is the evidence for this belief.

    This is like the process of waking up from the trance of MBTI.

    However waking up from MBTi presents social problems because MBTI is so widely accepted and used.

    So to wake up from MBTI is to wake up from a vast social trance - you will find yourself alone and cast on your own resources.

    To realise that MBTI is just pseudo-science and part of the New Age religion is to become a lonely dissident - with all the dangers associated with that.

    So really we are left with the question, is it better to be a believer like everyone else or is it better to be a lonely sceptic.

    On the balance of probabilities it is better to be a believer but only if you protect yourself by denying that MBTI is a religious belief.

    It works for millions of people, why not you?

    Victor.

  3. #33
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The irony is not of my making - I was described as an INTJ - so I adopted it - like a nickname.

    However it is all beside the point. Because you can accept MBTI as a given or you can step outside the given or taken for granted - you can transcend MBTI.

    And you step outside MBTI in exactly the same way you step outside of any religious belief.

    First you learn the history of the belief and this will give you a pretty good idea of how it fits into society.

    Then you look at its psychological structure to see what needs it is meeting.

    Then you ask what is the evidence for this belief.

    This is like the process of waking up from the trance of MBTI.

    However waking up from MBTi presents social problems because MBTI is so widely accepted and used.

    So to wake up from MBTI is to wake up from a vast social trance - you will find yourself alone and cast on your own resources.

    To realise that MBTI is just pseudo-science and part of the New Age religion is to become a lonely dissident - with all the dangers associated with that.

    So really we are left with the question, is it better to be a believer like everyone else or is it better to be a lonely sceptic.

    On the balance of probabilities it is better to be a believer but only if you protect yourself by denying that MBTI is a religious belief.

    It works for millions of people, why not you?

    Victor.
    What is science itself if not a religion based on the belief that we can fathom the universe from our single standpoint?

    It's all a crapshoot to me. I just thought it was ironic that an INTJ would be commenting on the whole science/ religion aspect due to the oft used fight of trying to force a decision to be "right" by sheer belief in the reasoning behind it... That just tickled my funny bone is all.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default A Silk Purse from a Sow's Ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What is science itself if not a religion based on the belief that we can fathom the universe from our single standpoint?

    It's all a crapshoot to me. I just thought it was ironic that an INTJ would be commenting on the whole science/ religion aspect due to the oft used fight of trying to force a decision to be "right" by sheer belief in the reasoning behind it... That just tickled my funny bone is all.
    You do have a nice sense of humour.

    However I do think it is important to distinguish between a scientific idea and a religious belief.

    A religious belief can't be falsified by evidence while scientific ideas are regularly and often, as a matter of course, falsified by evidence.

    A religious belief is part of our common mythos. And it is mythos that confers meaning to a society - the mythos gives meaning to life.

    But a scientific idea can't give meaning to a society because it is merely provisional.

    However the waters have been muddied because the religious impulse has taken the kudos of science and created pseudo-science, like MBTI.

    So now we have science and pseudo-science. And pseudo-science is a religious belief because it can't be falsified.

    We have tried to create mythos, that is meaning, out of science.

    It is like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    Victor.

  5. #35
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You do have a nice sense of humour.

    However I do think it is important to distinguish between a scientific idea and a religious belief.

    A religious belief can't be falsified by evidence while scientific ideas are regularly and often, as a matter of course, falsified by evidence.

    A religious belief is part of our common mythos. And it is mythos that confers meaning to a society - the mythos gives meaning to life.

    But a scientific idea can't give meaning to a society because it is merely provisional.

    However the waters have been muddied because the religious impulse has taken the kudos of science and created pseudo-science, like MBTI.

    So now we have science and pseudo-science. And pseudo-science is a religious belief because it can't be falsified.

    We have tried to create mythos, that is meaning, out of science.

    It is like making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    Victor.
    Just to reduce that to it's parts, "anything which cannot be proved to be false or true is false or faith"?

    As I see it science uses a lot of faith, such as the substituted character for the square root of minus one, the reliance on the unexplained properties of gravity. How long have we gone on thinking Einstein was right...well right and then wrong to be pernickerty?

    The main difference between science and religion, as far as I can tell, is that fewer people take science to heart and take it personally if you challenge their faith in a theory or two. Also science is continually being challenged as part of it's own mantra. Perhaps faith should do likewise?

    Anyhow I digress, the idea that something must be verifiable to be determined as anything other than faith also qualifies a lot of the scientific pursuits into that realm also....such as the much vaunted Mr Hawking and his black holes.. how the hell they intend to prove that without direct observation I do not know.

    Anyhow when the world was flat it was unproven and yet accepted. The fact that it was later disproven has no impact on that times faith in it's science. Also though you can challenge science you'd have to be damned good or else you'd only be sneered at. Personally I figure that science is merely a more flexible religion. It has changed with the times.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #36

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    I had lost the patience to post. But I got in in reasonable time

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    But is this advice really the best advice? After doing certain things, people report being more like 'they really are' -- is this really because that happened? Did they really get in touch with their true selves? Or are they just happier? The concept of 'true self,' you say, a painful process with a lot of existentialist angst, does not seem like it would yield such a result.

    This may be the typical advice, but do people actually follow it? Or do they just make themselves happier without following it and just say that it worked?
    Like many things, there is period of toil and pain before the pay-off. One definite thing about it is that it makes for "Creative Tension," which can be good thing despite the anxiety felt when there is that tension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Even if your filters are lowered effectively, what about the filters of others? To label yourself as more unbiased is rather arrogant, don't you think?
    I don't think there is a good way to compare authenticity between two different people. Labeling oneself as anything, may or may not be arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    If your own filters are lowered, but those of others are not, well, it leaves you in a rather lonely world, thinking that you know the 'truth' of the matter more easily than others while you still have to live with them. Unless, of course, lowering filters implies conforming.
    Quite frankly, I don't think you can tell if others lower their filters or not. These are two different settings. I believe the one you are talking about is a social one. I am referring to a personal one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    It sounds like at this point one would just want a way out, rather than a search for 'authenticity.' Authenticity sounds as if it's not a 'way out' but rather a way of understanding the box one has put oneself in.

    Of course there are plenty of ways out, if you're brave enough to take them. Mid-life crises, sabbatical, forcing oneself to do something uncomfortable each day (a la Mark Twain), quitting your job and chasing your dream, finding religion, whatever.
    The problem is, people take their boxes with them when they do these things. Often, switching jobs doing something different, etc. does nothing to satisfy, and does not create a way out. People take their emotional baggage with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    You can twist these as ways that 'people go searching for authenticity,' or it could be much shallower than that -- people are trying to find their happiness and their fortune. Which doesn't sound like what authenticity will give.
    They may or may not be searching for authenticity. It depends on how much baggage they take with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Perhaps... then again, perhaps not. The human experience is in essence very lonely, with no measure of comparison between people beyond what we can see -- and this is one of the points where I see 'authenticity' failing in its application.
    It fails in its application in comparison between people because that is not where it is intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    This is why I never understood why people went into the corporate world so willingly. It looks to me like a last resort, and yet I see the Young Business Leaguers around every day. At least in lower-level jobs, one is assumed to have other factors of support, but in the corporate world, the job sucks out time with family and friendships and all the joy and pride in your work and whatever else you do. If job satisfaction is so low, why do people do it? I guess that's not so much the question as why do people do it so willingly? Or maybe I'm just too young and naive to understand this, but it all just looks so foreign to me.
    What are the other choices? Starting your own business, or working for a small-family business?

    Some professions have little choice in this matter.

    The state has all the issues of the corporate world and more. Small businesses have to deal with corporations and government all the time. There may be a small buffer, but no real escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Is a relaxed state of mind really achieveable through self-awareness? Maybe if somebody grows into it for long enough, but the two don't naturally seem to go together.
    I would say a relaxed state of mind is a pre-requisite. What follows, will be strange and perhaps painful. One achieves authenticity through relaxation, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    It does. I don't see much point in remembering beyond the facts, so everything gets leveled to just about nothing. The emphasis that so many people put on common memories for bonding is disturbing to me...
    What would you suggest they bond over?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Point and counterpoint would be wise, I think. Presentation is everything.
    Prozac Nation maybe a personal look at the painful side of things. I haven't actually read it.

    It is hard to test out lists with the current state of the server. But I can provide more later.

    As for what followed regarding MBTI amd authenticity. I will need to read further to catch up. Not sure how long that will take.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #37
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Ygolo, I'm just going to say this.

    This is taking what is and making a human interpretation. Human interpretation is fundamentally flawed. Even if somebody were 'authentic' they could not possibly be perceived as such by themselves because of this flawed perception.

    The longer I speak, the more I lie. The more I'm not sure of what I'm saying. And the more it's impossible to tell. What you're describing is a paradox. As soon as we're aware of 'what's there,' as authenticity states, we are no longer aware. Awareness ruins it. If you wreck it by finding it, then why find it?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #38
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    What I first thought of by 'authenticity' and what I think they might be trying to get at corresponds with Maslow's self-actualized person.

    You could say it's the thing that everyone ultimately strives for if you look at his Hierarchy of Needs. (Image:Maslow's hierarchy of needs.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


    From this site: Maslow's Hierarchy, Societal Change and the Knowledge Worker Revolution.

    Maslow described the characteristics of the Self-Actualized Person as follows:

    Are realistically oriented
    Accept other people for what they are
    Are spontaneous in thinking, emotions, and behavior
    Are problem-centered rather than self-centered
    Need privacy
    Are autonomous, independent, and able to remain true to themselves in the face of rejection or unpopularity
    Have a continuous freshness of appreciation
    Have mystic or oceanic experiences although not necessarily religious
    Identify with mankind
    Have deep meaningful relationships with a few people
    Have a democratic structure and judge people as individuals
    Have highly developed ethics
    Resist total conformity to culture

    And this site (Self-Actualization: The Peak of Human Achievement) explains some characteristics more.


    Looking at the rules they gave
    1. Read Novels
    2. Meditate
    3. Be Deliberate
    4. But Not Too Deliberate
    5. Cultivate Solitude
    6. But Stay Connected
    7. Play hard
    8. Be Willing to Lose
    They seemed kind of stupid at first glance... read novels, meditate, be deliberate but not too deliberate?... without having been given explanations, but I guess you would say these rules correspond to having privacy, thinking carefully, and being mindful and self-aware--characteristics of a self-actualized person.

    I think being authentic involves reaching a highly developed understanding of morality and the ability to be accepting, being in touch with reality at a healthy level, being 'true to yourself' and independent.
    Last edited by placebo; 05-14-2008 at 06:15 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Ygolo, I'm just going to say this.

    This is taking what is and making a human interpretation. Human interpretation is fundamentally flawed. Even if somebody were 'authentic' they could not possibly be perceived as such by themselves because of this flawed perception.
    Yes. Perhaps ultimate authenticity, as well as ultimate truth are unattainable goals. But so is ultimately being alive. We will all die. It is a futile attempt to do anything, then, because none of it counts for anything. There isn't any "use" for it (that is anything at all) so why bother?

    Ironically, the acceptance of the unattainability of these "ultimates" and still continuing is part of what many Buddhists believe to be part of enlightenment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The longer I speak, the more I lie. The more I'm not sure of what I'm saying. And the more it's impossible to tell. What you're describing is a paradox. As soon as we're aware of 'what's there,' as authenticity states, we are no longer aware. Awareness ruins it. If you wreck it by finding it, then why find it?
    There is duality here, true. But the contradiction only occurs when you pursue ultimates to an extreme. They serve as guide-posts, not as ends for themselves.


    As placebo mentioned, this is part of the connection between self-awareness and self-actualization. The unattainability of the self serves as one's strong inner drive, and the acceptance of the unattainability serves to keep one grounded.

    What's more, we carry the self with us where ever we go, while living. There is no way to get away, there is no way out of that situation, while we are still alive.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #40
    Junior Member Councilor's Avatar
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    I have my own set of rules that I live by. Some of these agree with them, some of them don't.

    As for the eight rules:

    1. Read Novels
    Limiting. I culture myself with a broader scope in the modern era. I read whatever I chance upon. I watch what movies I chance upon. I enjoy gaming. Everything inanimate is an experience.

    2. Meditate
    I had my mid-life crisis at 22 and I've done soul searching since.

    3. Be Deliberate
    When I do something, it is intentional and it counts.

    4. But Not Too Deliberate
    Be extreme, but not too extreme. This statement is off my plate.

    5. Cultivate Solitude
    I live as a recluse unless something requires my person in public.

    6. But Stay Connected
    Read above.

    7. Play hard
    Don't get bored, wasted time is by my choice.

    8. Be Willing to Lose
    I'm willing to lose only if in a friendly match or if it means I will learn something. In competition it is to push me to win.

    [Edit] The word authenticity doesn't taste right. It tastes like a rubber band snapping around in the mouth and jumping around. I don't like it.
    I'm the Councilor, I'll be watching you.

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