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  1. #1
    heart on fire
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    Default Self Delusion and Healthy Self Feedback

    I deserve good things.
    I am entitled to my share of happiness.
    I refuse to beat myself up. I am attractive person.
    I am fun to be with.
    I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me.

    Stuart Smalley


    I know some people *cough* in-laws who spend a lot of time giving themselves these insipid self-pep talks and yet they remain as messed up as ever. They are fully of sumerged anger that comes out in snide remarks, invalidation, cut-downs, inability to be truly close to others, acting on impulses without thinking, etc. Their positive self talk appears to have also become a defense mechanism that prevents them from seeing the harm they do.

    Their critical T has not been transmuted into anything healthy and useful for them, nor has it been engaged in anything positive, instead it seems they are using F based mantras to try and wish the T away, but of course it can never go away, so it goes underground, becomes twice as strong and more negative than ever in the darkness like that.

    When does positive self talk become a negative self delusion?

    This is a topic of great interest to me, the ways all humans delude self.

    I often hear people say they want to remove their inner critical voices, but is this healthy even? Wouldn't a better way be to try and be able to listen to the inner critic more impersonally and try to perceive between when it is a rational concern that we could improve on and when it is an irrational fear? Isn't using blanket positive self talk acutally putting a gag on a vital part of ourself? For a feeler, I believe putting a gag on the T could be one of the most dangerous things ever done.

    Is it better to use mantras to try and cover up and deny the inner critic, or is it better to try and change our reactions to the inner critic to try and discern when it is a valid criticism or an unreasonable one and to use its feedback as a means of healthy self growth? Where is the inner illness anyway? Is it in the critical voice itself or our own over-reaction to it?


    Thoughts from others? I am truly interested in other viewpoints.





    ..

  2. #2
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    The Me Era.

    "I tell it like it is, and if that makes me a bitch then that's your problem."

    It's like a toxic imitation of modesty.

  3. #3
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    I have a DIL who is Borderline and has hurt everyone she's ever gotten involved with and that includes her own kids. I don't know if she's a good example because of the BPD (high functioning) but she has more grandiose ideas about herself than anyone I've ever known. This, of course, gives her the "right" to sit up on a high horse criticizing everyone and running the lives of those she steam rolls or blackmails.

    It seems to me there is a self-talk gauge and that is other people. If your actions, based on your self-talk, are hurting others then there's something wrong with it. Unfortunately, people who do that usually rationalize the pain they cause others by blaming the ones they hurt... as in "I'm such a perfect, wonderful, person that there has to be something wrong with them... they're just overly sensitive.... or they deserved what they got." Well, that might wash a few times but when the great perponderance of people have had the same experience with you.. you really should revise your self-concept. "Goodness" produces good behavior and results.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    The Me Era.

    "I tell it like it is, and if that makes me a bitch then that's your problem."

    It's like a toxic imitation of modesty.
    Yes, I agree about this. It is a swaggering denial of healthy self checks too. It is like the person knows that there is something controversial about just putting it all out there, but they want to deflect the heat it may gain them to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    It seems to me there is a self-talk gauge and that is other people.

    Other people can be a source of perspective, but we have to realize as well they can be just as biased as we can be and also view us through their own delusions and self defense mechanisms and over sensititivity. Sometimes they may also be impaired, tired, stressed, drunk, etc. We cannot always know what is going with them personally.

    It is true that often other people's reactions to us tell us more about them than ourselves. This is why I think it is so important to try and listen to the inner critic more impersonally and take its feedback less extreme, less all or nothing and more as a source of vital feedback.

  5. #5
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Oh, dear.
    Not really.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Oh, dear.
    Yes, care to expound? I am sure you have some very interesting thoughts on the topic.

  7. #7
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    I'm sorry... I am sort of taken aback by the value-judgments in the original post. Um, I don't really have much to expound upon -- but really, I would rather accept this kind of behaivour as an aspect of that person's self-expression. In my view, characterizing it as "self-delusion" never really does any good, (just as I view the "positive" characterization of self-talks to be fruitless) -- unless one has better suggestions for the person to replace the behaivour. Obviously there aren't many people I know and I'm close to that does this, though I have conversed with a few of my friends about this occasionally -- as long as I don't see them as being self-destructive I don't see why I should judge them or interfere. And even then you would have to be pretty gentle in pointing out a "better", more concrete course of action.

    I'll edit in some more thoughts...

    The subject is on a very relative sort of level... for example... what is delusion and is this the only way of deluding one self?
    When you say...
    This is a topic of great interest to me, the ways all humans delude self.
    ...how are you not sure that you're not deluding yourself? Maybe you are. Yet unless someone else seriously points it out to you you'd never believe that you are.

    On the "inner critic",
    How can you be sure that the inner critic, or for example even your Fi, has your best interests at heart? (no pun intended) The lens that the inner critic uses might be a different one than the one who does the self-talks. That doesn't mean it's any more right. Not even your reactions are able to discern it completely -- you're making a conscious decision to trust them, instead.
    What is healthy self-growth? I don't think you can really describe it. Perhaps the people who'd like to remove their inner critics have a point -- maybe their inner critics are leading them astray, and removing or shushing might result in another way of growing healthily.

    On defense mechanisms,
    Again, these change. Your post might be a defense mechanism in itself -- you might be thinking that you're "higher" than those who self-talk and "delude themselves". There might even be a nice name for it. Or perhaps you aren't -- but even then, no one can make sure that you are. It is the same deal with these kind of talks -- IMO you can't simply deem them as defense mechanisms when they might be serving some other purpose that perhaps you're not seeing. Maybe people *are* changed by them, or maybe the talks help them go on with their life with greater ease than without the talks.

    Okay, sorry for the editfest, heart! That will be all for now... and it goes without saying that I respect your views and it is not my intent to invalidate them or otherwise trample them...
    Not really.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    I'm sorry... I am sort of taken aback by the value-judgments in the original post. Um, I don't really have much to expound upon -- but really, I would rather accept this kind of behaivour as an aspect of that person's self-expression. In my view, characterizing it as "self-delusion" never really does any good, (just as I view the "positive" characterization of self-talks to be fruitless) -- unless one has better suggestions for the person to replace the behaivour. Obviously there aren't many people I know and I'm close to that does this, though I have conversed with a few of my friends about this occasionally -- as long as I don't see them as being self-destructive I don't see why I should judge them or interfere. And even then you would have to be pretty gentle in pointing out a "better", more concrete course of action.
    That's a fair criticism.

    I did actually have a suggestion here that it is better to try and gain perspective over the inner critic than to try and hush it up through mantras.

    BUT I am not suggesting that I *should* tell anyone else to change their ways, I am expressing my own opinion here that it is a self delusion to try and use mantras to quiet the inner critic. The inner critic won't go away, just goes under cover. I am talking about the topic for the sake of talking about the topic on a message and hearing other opinions in reaction to my words here, not trying to change people's behaviors. There's a difference.

    BTW, I have done the mantra bit earlier in my life. I do believe it is a self delusion and like trying to place a band aid on a amputated arm!

    I ask again, when dealing with the inner critical voice, where is the true sickness? In the voice itself or in our own over reaction to it?

  9. #9
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    HEY! People DO like me! I am practically the HOTTEST thing since sliced bread!

    I mean, don't you think so?
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    I'll edit in some more thoughts...

    The subject is on a very relative sort of level... for example... what is delusion and is this the only way of deluding one self?
    When you say...
    Where did I say this was the only way to delude self?

    Everything in life is relative, does this mean nothing can be discussed in a forum for the sake of discussion?

    ...how are you not sure that you're not deluding yourself? Maybe you are. Yet unless someone else seriously points it out to you you'd never believe that you are.
    Without seeking with the self for the ways in which we delude ourselves, we haven't a prayer of dealing with ourselves honestly. Other people can only give us reflections and those reflections are always contaminated with their own internal delusions.

    The external world is not always the best source of true direction. If we rely on the community solely for our judgement and that community becomes corrupted, then no one can find clarity. A billion zeros still equal zero.

    On the "inner critic",
    How can you be sure that the inner critic, or for example even your Fi, has your best interests at heart? (no pun intended) The lens that the inner critic uses might be a different one than the one who does the self-talks. That doesn't mean it's any more right. Not even your reactions are able to discern it completely -- you're making a conscious decision to trust them, instead.
    What is healthy self-growth? I don't think you can really describe it.
    Of course they both use different lenses. I get the impression you highlighted on certain words in my post and didn't get the content fully. Fi would not be the source for negative critical voice, it would Te. Fi can filter Ne and Si's perceptions and delude without the needed feedback from Te. So if Fi pep talks to silence critical Te could be a dangerous idea. The better choice would be to take a more impersonal view of the Te and try to discern what things I could improve on by and by and not to react emotionally and negatively just because the inner voice is pointing out a weak area.

    Healthy self growth is something to be strived for, it is in the striving that we grow, not the destination.

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