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  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    Women are always picky.
    Women dominate mate selection. The bell curve of available mates must change in accordance with any specific social need... so you can expect preferences to shift.

    (I've always thought that it's possible men dominate society as a way to prevent female mate selection to become the defacto standard of social superiority... but anyway)

    But their taste of men have never changed. No matter how rich they are, they still want the dominating, aggressive, and adventurous men with an attitude. Casanova, Lord Byron, and Hemingway are examples of such men.
    Perhaps in the wild. However, it has also been shown that certain traits - agreeableness (ie: F-ish), openness (N) and conscientiousness (J) are all predictors of both mate selection and relationship happiness ("FNJ" being positive and "TSP" being negative, roughly in that order - men put more emphasis on conscientiousness).

    It's akin to saying that men like sleeping with a lot of women. The animal instinct remains, but the socialized impact differs significantly in the modern world. Preferences shift.

    Women want a bread winner only when they need stability, for themselves or their children. That's why women above 30 always try to get married, or dream of marriage. They know they will not be attractive anymore in a few years time and they need to get married to ensure their financial stability.
    In asia, "30" use to be 25 or 20, depending on where you are talking about. This is entirely cultural in nature. Women tend to like money and power, all other things being equal. There is certainly no lack of young women looking to land the 'big fish'... they aren't looking for a typical "bread winner" either.

    It's pretty hard to generalize "what women want". Different types want different things in different measurements. While biologically they do want certain gene traits, women are dominated by mental connections far far more than men. That results in other traits being important, if not more important than certain previous gene traits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Getting back to the OP, hmmm, I don't know. I see value in what Toonia AND Gatsby say and can't quite make sense of which is closer to the truth. What's interesting to me, though, is that if you take Toonia's tact that the standards are meant in some way to restrain women, it also means that women are complicit in their own enslavement. I have found women more uptight about their weight and appearance than men demand from them explicitly. Perhaps there is a cultural ideal that is being assimilated, but on the personal level, many men seem much more forgiving of women -- they're not required to play the skin-and-bones role of the Fifth Horseman.
    In absolute terms, what I can say is;

    1) Most of these norms are not imposed by men but by social standards and by women.
    2) Men are almost universally more forgiving of 'errant' things than women.

    However, I think Toonia is also correct in that certain things (feet binding, etc) are also a result of social conventions, typically male dominated. However, it is also true that men have been put through the same things... it's only civilization that has removed a lot of it. Metrosexual is here now though, so I can't say that it won't be back... only that you get it in tribal societies a whole lot more.


    It hurts to watch -- my daughter, who is slim and slight like most Asian women, and probably always will be no matter what she eats, already comments negatively about her weight... and I think she's already too skinny. I constantly reassure her that she's skinnier than many women and most would be happy to look just like her... but she persists in this thinking. I just don't understand. No one at home is talking about "being fat" -- not about her, not about anyone.
    I don't know how old she is... but the cause isn't that mysterious.

    1 - Beauty is measured along a bell curve (which is very ^ shaped - very little tail towards (un)attractive).
    2 - We intuitively measure ourselves along a bell curve
    3 - Our own bell curve model is based upon biased sampling - what we see
    4 - Mass media produces over 50% of our representation of human beauty

    Hence, the bell curve is vastly shoved towards "beautiful" with the norm being vastly out of whack with reality. The end result is that nearly every women is insecure with their looks regardless of where they actually fit on the curve (with increasing amounts of exceptions based upon the individual

  2. #22
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlets View Post
    Can you clarify the "arms" comment? Women shave their arms? Please tell me it's not so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't and I don't know anybody who does.
    I must confess. I know two women who do/have done this.

    Sometimes I'm tempted to shave my moustache, but I'm thinking that would be a bad idea when it grows back.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I must confess. I know two women who do/have done this. Sometimes I'm tempted to shave my moustache, but I'm thinking that would be a bad idea when it grows back.
    You could laser-remove it, if it bugs you. That would kill it quick, and no grow-back either once the treatments are done.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You could laser-remove it, if it bugs you. That would kill it quick, and no grow-back either once the treatments are done.
    But that's like admitting to the world that it's a problem. . . which I suppose I just did.

  5. #25
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMCE View Post
    But their taste of men have never changed. No matter how rich they are, they still want the dominating, aggressive, and adventurous men with an attitude. Casanova, Lord Byron, and Hemingway are examples of such men.
    Nope, doesn't fit anyone I've dated.
    Women want a bread winner only when they need stability, for themselves or their children. That's why women above 30 always try to get married, or dream of marriage. They know they will not be attractive anymore in a few years time and they need to get married to ensure their financial stability.
    This either.

    For example:
    I dated a dying tattooed motorcycling former physics genius who would've eventually been 1) a family man if he'd gotten his lungs sorted out and 2) oozed sex appeal. His mother and grandmother were models, and he probably could have been one before his health failed. He turned heads. Presence and charisma out his marvelous ass.

    He offered zero sense of stability, and made sure to brutally knock over any plans involving him on a longer than six month basis, since he couldn't promise to be in good health (or alive) enough that far in advance. He was an adonnis, but dying kills the libido pretty dead.

    That's just an example. There are many many many men who simply don't fit, and who have interesting, successful relationships. I know of a couple on INTPc, even!

    In any case, any man giving any serious variant on the "nice guys vs jerks" theory sets off warning alarms in my head-- usually, they suck at relationships, and use it as an excuse why it's not their fault their relationships always spectacularly fail.
    Let's do this thing.

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    But that's like admitting to the world that it's a problem. . . which I suppose I just did.

    wellllllll.... yeah.

    For something like this, I think that all that really matters is how you feel about it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I must confess. I know two women who do/have done this.
    I know lots who did it once as a kid, either out of curiosity or because "I thought you were supposed to," but nobody who currently does.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Well, I bet you still shave your armpits, arms, and legs, too.
    WHAT? I don't shave my arms, and I've only seen two people in my whole life with shaved arms. One was one girl in 7th grade; I felt virtuous for not laughing at her. I noticed she never did it again. The other was a very strange guy in california.

    Is it so common where you live that people see it the same as shaving their pits?

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I've seen shaved pits and legs... but shaving arms? I've never seen that... even with women who have dark hair on their arms.

    (I guess the stubble would be even more noticeable than the hair, and you'd have to keep them constantly shaved -- which is more time than most people would want to waste on it.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    .
    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 09-12-2007 at 03:43 PM.

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