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  1. #21
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    The line where we're leaving "not tell unnecessary truths" and instead enter "lie by omission" is blurry and not always measurable by logic. Let's take another example: person X learns that her husband just died. Will she immediately tell her son, who was very close to his father? Or will she withhold the information on purpose, knowing he would be devastated?
    That's why I find "revelance" is an important factor. In this case, not spontaneously telling the truth would be a lie by omission to me, clean and simple. I'm not claiming this to be the absolute truth, though.

  2. #22
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    What do you consider important? Are the lies like that you like Hugh Grant movies, or are they like you have a chronic disease?
    It generally amounts to someone asking me if I know where some banking building is while there trying to tell me the location of some place so they can tell me a story related to that. I mostly frequently lie went I want someone to hurry up. Not that it's my deliberate plan, that's just how it happens.
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  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I've never really tried to do this with everyone. There are SOME people I trust, to whom I always tell the truth, but I'm perfectly willing to lie to everyone else. I do believe it's wrong to tell a lie in order to benefit yourself or get ahead, but I don't think it's wrong to tell a lie to spare someone's feelings or keep the peace in a situation. That's probably just my Fe talking, though...

    I lie because I don't trust everyone with the truth. The truth can hurt just as much as a lie, sometimes more depending on the situation.

  4. #24
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    I don't lie. No one I'm close to lies. I just had a discussion with 2 of my friends (friends with one for 18 years, friends with the other for 9 years) and we were talking about how during the entire duration of our friendships we have never caught each other in even a small lie (because we don't lie). There is an ongoing joke between me and one of them (ENTJ) that sometimes I tell here the truth with my ass puckered because I know she is going to try to put her foot in it, but I would rather have someone be mad at me than pretend to be someone I'm not.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
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  5. #25
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I try never to lie, by which I mean say something that I know to be untrue. I don't find this too difficult; in fact, I find it hard to say something false. On the other hand, I am very good at not answering, giving partial answers, or steering the conversation away from the question so it just gets forgotten. I won't lie, but I freely withhold the truth if it serves my purposes.
    This is a pretty good description of myself as well. I find it very difficult to lie (even good intentioned harmless white lies (like saying I'm doing ok or well when I'm not) are difficult for me), but I do sometimes paint only a partial picture through ommission of details. I do not find being truthful to be chalenging, but what I do sometimes find chalenging is being completely open about things (painting the whole picture) - especialy when I think doing so may not be what someone wants to hear but is something they should know.
    (keys2cognition) Fi (47.6), Ne (36.8), Fe (36.8), Si (31.6), Ti (29.7), Ni (27.4), Te (17.2) Se (12.5) - subject to change - last updated 11JAN2012
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  6. #26

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    I think I tend not to lie, not because I am honest, but because it is easier to be truthful in most circumstances.

    I remember hearing on a radio program that liars tend to be more creative and have more connections between the prefrontal cortex and other regions of the brain (or something like that). The same program mentioned that people who were lying tended to use more mental energy than people telling the truth (I think it was fMRI base, but it's a very fuzzy recollection).

    My hypothesis is that most people lie because they are motivated to lie for some reason. In other words, because it is easier to tell the truth, there must be a driving force to make the person choose to lie.

    So, I believe, people who lie, and find it difficult to be honest, are usually motivated by incentives/punishments or residual effects from former incentives/punishments. I would even deem people who lie with no way to see that this lie would benefit them, are "curiosities"

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think I tend not to lie, not because I am honest, but because it is easier to be truthful in most circumstances.

    I remember hearing on a radio program that liars tend to be more creative and have more connections between the prefrontal cortex and other regions of the brain (or something like that). The same program mentioned that people who were lying tended to use more mental energy than people telling the truth (I think it was fMRI base, but it's a very fuzzy recollection).

    My hypothesis is that most people lie because they are motivated to lie for some reason. In other words, because it is easier to tell the truth, there must be a driving force to make the person choose to lie.

    So, I believe, people who lie, and find it difficult to be honest, are usually motivated by incentives/punishments or residual effects from former incentives/punishments. I would even deem people who lie with no way to see that this lie would benefit them, are "curiosities"
    I'd say most people just say whatever the other wishes to hear, because it's the easiest choice and it has positive consequences on the relationship - at least on the short term. But what others want to hear is not necessarily the truth, far from it.

    For instance, a common lie is to answer "Yes, with pleasure" and smile when asked to do something despite not actually wanting to do it at all. The truth would be more like "I don't want to do that, but I'll do it for you because I like you" or just "No".

    So the "reason" for most lies is simply this - avoiding conflict. From this conclusion I could even say Feeling types are more prone to lie because they often hate conflict and they need to keep a positive self-image of themselves; this includes this very thread and all those who claim they never lie. No offense intended, I'm just looking for the truth.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    I'd say most people just say whatever the other wishes to hear, because it's the easiest choice and it has positive consequences on the relationship - at least on the short term. But what others want to hear is not necessarily the truth, far from it.
    This presumes that people know what other people want to hear. I find mind reading difficult, if not impossible.

    I suppose, in a situation where I knew with good confidence what the other person wants to hear, that I may lie to tell them what they want to hear, but lies have many consequences other than just the immediate "positive consequences", and the long term consequences could be very negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    For instance, a common lie is to answer "Yes, with pleasure" and smile when asked to do something despite not actually wanting to do it at all. The truth would be more like "I don't want to do that, but I'll do it for you because I like you" or just "No".
    I'm not sure how common this is. I can't remember the last time I heard the words "with pleasure" used in response to someone being asked to do something. "Sure. I guess," seems quite a bit more common than either of the answers you give.

    But we are all relying on our own ideas of what is common. It would be interesting if anyone measures this sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nales View Post
    So the "reason" for most lies is simply this - avoiding conflict. From this conclusion I could even say Feeling types are more prone to lie because they often hate conflict and they need to keep a positive self-image of themselves; this includes this very thread and all those who claim they never lie. No offense intended, I'm just looking for the truth.
    I suppose A reason to lie would be to avoid conflict. But I can see many possible reasons, including getting something you desire, and various other things.

    I have now become interested a bit on studying lying.

    Because to me, saying something genuine is simple, you just relay what you genuinely think. As much as this genuineness reflects the truth, you have told the truth. But to lie (which I believe is more than just stating something that is false), you usually have to make something up that is not a reflection of what is in your head.

    I wonder if people were "implanted" with an idea that is clearly false, and then asked to give their genuine thought about a situation, if lying would all of a sudden be more common. Because, if that were so, it would lend credence to the idea that "all-else-being-equal" telling the truth is easier because nothing needs to be made up.

    Actually, I very vaguely remember hearing about this "folk-experiment" where people were all asked to say something to appease someone regarding something, and that most people just did it. (Kind of an "Emperor's New Clothes" thing)

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  9. #29
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    Lying and the Limitation of Power

    The first lie is a milestone in the development of a child. And yet parents cherish the first words and the first steps but never the first lie.

    This is because the first lie is starting to differentiate the child from the parents for the first time. And the absolute power the parents have over the child is diminished. And worse, it will continue to diminish over time, until there is rebellion in adolescence, and betrayal as we reach our majority.

    And it is not just parents who see lying as evil, but all authority figures.

    So authority hates lying because it limits their power over us.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This presumes that people know what other people want to hear. I find mind reading difficult, if not impossible.
    I suppose, in a situation where I knew with good confidence what the other person wants to hear, that I may lie to tell them what they want to hear, but lies have many consequences other than just the immediate "positive consequences", and the long term consequences could be very negative.
    I think we're not talking about the same kind of "what people want". Sure, knowing what people really want in their life is difficult, especially since they often don't know it themselves.
    However, when someone asks you "Can you do this and that for me?" or "Was I good?" or "Do you always tell the truth to me?" the answer they want to hear is obviously "Yes", and it's usually the one you'll tell them.

    These are white lies. But they're still lies, and they do indeed have negative consequences on the long term. When you answer Yes to the first question (and you don't actually want to do what they're asking) you're building resentment inside of yourself. When you answer Yes to the second question (and the person actually did bad) you're comforting them in their failures instead of giving them rational criticism that would help them improve. And if you answer Yes to the last question you're just making things even worst.

    The problem is that, when asked about lies, people only think about the "evil, selfish lie that will give me an advantage over the other person". But this kind of lie is incredibly uncommon when compared to the "white lie that avoids conflict and pleases the other person on the moment".

    Oh yes, I think I've just read about this Emperor story. The Emperor is naked and believes he has clothes, yet nobody dares tell him the truth. That's another reason to lie: Fear. Although it's related to the "please others" part.

    The first lie is a milestone in the development of a child. And yet parents cherish the first words and the first steps but never the first lie.

    This is because the first lie is starting to differentiate the child from the parents for the first time. And the absolute power the parents have over the child is diminished. And worse, it will continue to diminish over time, until there is rebellion in adolescence, and betrayal as we reach our majority.

    And it is not just parents who see lying as evil, but all authority figures.

    So authority hates lying because it limits their power over us.
    Parents, just like everyone, cannot accept the truth and would rather be comforted by lies. They want their children to be exactly like they want them to be (absolute power as you say it), and because the child does not and cannot follow their demands, said child is forced to lie in order not to hurt them.
    Ironically teenagers are much more honest about what they really think and feel, yet adolescence is the one moment that's dreaded by all parents.

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