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  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I've shared something similar among my social circles, so I'll just copy what I wrote there:

    While I'm all for increasing awareness and education of differing dispositions, I tend to hate the self-helpy, you're-really-special-the-world-is-just-against-you sort of attitude that these articles can tend to perpetuate due to their language. Probably why I like enneagram so much; it's so negative it makes me feel more confident in what it tells me, and I'm not being pandered to.
    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    "Hi, my name is Susan Cain and not only do I NEED to validate my existence, I also need to sell my book which isn't based on any scientific evidence, just chatting with people, observations and stuff."
    Fair enough comments, but isn't this subject still of value, and to extroverts too? Would you not agree that homogenised social/work/school environments (in any form) stifle progress, creativity or even effective functionality? I think you are distracted by the pandering and in the process dismiss the central point too hastily.

    I also think part of the problem is that they have to write such articles at all; that someone has to explain that introverts aren't perverse losers. And seeing as they make up 30-50% of the population, this in and of itself is a little worrying.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #12
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Introverts are marginalised. Introversion is still disparaged by the extrovert majority because they do not understand it.
    This is true. I used to feel it much more acutely when I was younger, especially in school, but even today I hear extraverts put down introvert behaviors on a semi-frequent basis - more disturbingly sometimes in performance evaluations.

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  3. #13
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I agree there is a strong extrovert bias in society. The positive aspect of introversion is that you have less need of people in general, and I find that can make life easier because people can be complicated to deal with even for those who need the interactions. It can also help to find work that fits with how your mind functions. I avoid teaching in groups because there are too many signals all at once, and instead work one-on-one where I can concentrate more closely on the communication style and thought processes of the individual and tailor my approach to their specific needs. Delving deep appeals to me and so I take the neuro-atypical/special needs students where I teach which requires as much attention as you can give to perceive their unique perceptions.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  4. #14
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Lately I told my co-worker that I'll start with weight watchers and he asked me if I'll join a local group for that. And I asked him, why ? And he said that without joining a group, I'll never manage to put through with that. He's always like that, no matter what he does, maximum of social interaction needs to be involved. When they ask me what I am doing on the weekend and I tell them that I am building electronics in my garage, they immediantly interprete that as me being lonely having no friends thats why I have so, in their opinion, strange hobbies.

    To me the problem is a different one. I dont think that people have a concious bias against introverts or unsocial people, I think most people are bored and lack hobbies, because they are stupid. And its sad that society will label you an introvert, if you actually have some fantasy and ideas on what to do with ur freetime, besides hanging out at social gatherings.

    People like that have a huge curiosity factor. I have co-workers who need to know every detail of my life and need to immediantly relay the info to other people in chat. I have co-workers who meet in the morning for a social gathering and gossip the latest, tho they see themselves everyday and I am wondering if they dont bore the shit out of themselves already. To me its a mystery how someone can waste their precious lifetime to such a great extent.

    I am living in a metropolis with about 12 Million people on roughly 1,8 acres of land. I was born here and its my home but I am pretty sure that I'll die agrarian. You cant even fart here without having engaged another social contact... :/
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #15
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I am living in a metropolis with about 12 Million people on roughly 1,8 acres of land. I was born here and its my home but I am pretty sure that I'll die agrarian. You cant even fart here without having engaged another social contact... :/
    lolwut?
    No wonder you have no friends. (just kidding!)

    I don't think it's helpful to say extroverts/sociable people are just stupid and have no hobbies. Any more than it's helpful for them to label introverts weird.

    The introvert has the advantage of understanding extroversion to a greater extent than the extrovert does introversion. That should help us to be more tolerant of their peculiarities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #16
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    lolwut?
    No wonder you have no friends. (just kidding!)

    I don't think it's helpful to say extroverts/sociable people are just stupid and have no hobbies. Any more than it's helpful for them to label introverts weird.

    The introvert has the advantage of understanding extroversion to a greater extent than the extrovert does introversion. That should help us to be more tolerant of their peculiarities.
    Helpful it isnt thats true, but saying that helps relieving frustration.

    Regarding introverts having a better understanding of extroverts than vice versa is a fallacy in my opinion. The thing is that one does think, because of the internal world of the introvert, not shown to the outside, one cannot understand them without their very own help. Then again extroverts living their world externally do align their actions and thoughts according to their friends and groups they are active in and the introvert is not. So if extroverts and introverts by definition live in different dimensions from the start, the introvert has a as bad understanding of the extrovert as vice versa.

    if you tho were to equal extroversion with "acting according to social norms" and by that define all extroverts as having an identical personality, not till then does the definition of introverts understanding extroverts but not vice versa make sense.

    But without that nuance the difference between introvert and extrovert basically is only in the point of information gathering and exchange of views. And if you go a step further and say that "reading a book" basically is the same like "talking to a group or a person" because the book was written by a person, you can even finetune that. According to that the extrovert would be someone who lives in the present timeline, while the introvert could live anywhere. If the introvert was to only read books dealing with our present time, he'ldnt be any different from the extrovert.

    So if you boil that all down to the basics, the whole difference between introvert and extrovert basically is a joke. And its only the people and their behaviour and tolerance towards themselves that boil this whole thing up. Like extroverts poking introverts to be more communicative or introverts poking extroverts to sit down and read a book. So in the end its my very well right to be frustrated about people wanting me to do group activities. Cause as an introvert people can gft for me, as long as I can work in my garage.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #17
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Your English is certainly better than my German, but I do struggle to understand you sometimes.
    Are you claiming to be an introvert now?
    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Regarding introverts having a better understanding of extroverts than vice versa is a fallacy in my opinion. The thing is that one does think, because of the internal world of the introvert, not shown to the outside, one cannot understand them without their very own help. Then again extroverts living their world externally do align their actions and thoughts according to their friends and groups they are active in. So if extroverts and introverts by definition live in different dimensions from the start, the introvert has a as bad understanding of the extrovert as vice versa.
    I say this from personal experience and because of the pathologization of introversion, which has been touched on here.

    It was an introvert (Jung) who first proposed that introversion and extroversion were both equally valid ways of dealing with the world.

    According to your own experience, it is extroverts who condemn your solitary activities.

    It is almost impossible to survive as part of a social species without developing at least some accommodation to extroversion, whereas, it seems to be entirely possible for extreme extroverts to survive without really cultivating an inner life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Your English is certainly better than my German, but I do struggle to understand you sometimes.
    Are you claiming to be an introvert now?

    I say this from personal experience and because of the pathologization of introversion, which has been touched on here.

    It was an introvert (Jung) who first proposed that introversion and extroversion were both equally valid ways of dealing with the world.

    According to your own experience, it is extroverts who condemn your solitary activities.

    It is almost impossible to survive as part of a social species without developing at least some accommodation to extroversion, whereas, it seems to be entirely possible for extreme extroverts to survive without really cultivating an inner life.
    Yea I barely manage to express some things in english, I really need to broaden my vocabulary.

    What I meant is that there are people out there, who demand from you to be social or you wont be accepted as an individual. So its the intolerance and egoism I condemn.

    Extroversion/Introversion according to Jung for me can only be understood in combination with the respective function. So Ti for example means to delve with ones own thoughts deep into a specialized topic. While Te means the broad approach and the organisation of the tangible. On the other hand Si means leading ones live in accordance to a storehouse of experiences. While Ne means combining the uncombined... and so forth. So in mbti the terms E/I are a singularity and can only be understood in combination with the respective functions.

    In real life tho, E/I means basically whether you like group activities or dont. Wikipedia gives me this definition of the terms:

    Introversion: Introverts observe in groups rather than act. Typical characteristics are: calm, accurate, shy, reflective

    Extroversion: Extraverts find group activities exhilarating: Typical characteristics are: talkative, assertive, active, energetic, dominant, enthusiastic, adventorous

    According to that definition, I am extrovert.
    If you were to ask tho all of my workmates, they'ld tell you that I am an introvert. Cause the things I am intrested in are totally unconventional and since I am never able to keep up with smalltalk about what soccer team won on the weekend, everybody who knows me a bit more, would call me an introvert.

    Regarding business partners or people you only occasionally meet, which I do a lot in my job, I towards them try to mask my inherit unconventionally and have at least some small talk topics in the backhand. but thats only to keep the show going that is not me.

    An thats why I wanted to make that clear here. I hate it to be thrown into the great bottle of extroverts and people who like social gatherings and need a lot of friends, cause I am not like that. When I am tho in a group, I want things to be done therefore I quite quickly become the groups alpha male. Except there is someone who does care for things to be done, then I fall in row cause I have no leadership ambitions. Primary goal for me is always to get out of the group as quickly as possible.

    According to that you'ld prolly best type me intj. Thats what I keep scoring lately in nearly all mbti tests I do. But if I was to change my type on this forum to intj, they'ld come after me and hunt me with pitchforks and burn me in fire, therefore I am keeping that as a secret. In the end its knowledge to help only me getting a better understanding of myself, noone needs to know that really.

    Bottom line for me is, I hardly see myself fitting into the E/I distinction, nor see I myself fitting 100% with an mbti type. I dunno, by studieing all this things, I have gathered so much more information about people and nuances to life that I think a personality is more than what mbti or an E/I distinction could tell you. I have come to the conclusion that if you box yourself into a category, you box your personal growth as well and limit it. Cause after boxing yourself certain things can become uninteresting for you and you try to create an image of yourself which someone else made up for you. Therefore I am trieing to psychologically get away from boxing anything and rather try to see people by an approximation of their traits and treat them like the situation requires.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #19
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Extroversion/Introversion according to Jung for me can only be understood in combination with the respective function. So Ti for example means to delve with ones own thoughts deep into a specialized topic. While Te means the broad approach and the organisation of the tangible. On the other hand Si means leading ones live in accordance to a storehouse of experiences. While Ne means combining the uncombined... and so forth. So in mbti the terms E/I are a singularity and can only be understood in combination with the respective functions.
    Not really. Jung defined extroversion and introversion independently of functions. These were refinements to the basic model.
    If you look at later work by people like Eysenck and the Big 5 model, E/I is the only concept that has usefully been retained.

    We know that there is a biological basis for E/I, not so the cognitive functions.

    In real life tho, E/I means basically whether you like group activities or dont.
    This is just misinformation about E/I, not what it really means. It is the misinformation that articles like the one in the OP are trying to undo.

    Introversion: Introverts observe in groups rather than act. Typical characteristics are: calm, accurate, shy, reflective

    Extroversion: Extraverts find group activities exhilarating: Typical characteristics are: talkative, assertive, active, energetic, dominant, enthusiastic, adventorous

    According to that definition, I am extrovert.
    According to that definition, I can be either, depending upon the circumstance. However, I know in my bones that I am an introvert. Effecting typically extrovert behaviours does not change that.

    According to that you'ld prolly best type me intj. Thats what I keep scoring lately in nearly all mbti tests I do. But if I was to change my type on this forum to intj, they'ld come after me and hunt me with pitchforks and burn me in fire, therefore I am keeping that as a secret. In the end its knowledge to help only me getting a better understanding of myself, noone needs to know that really.
    It sounds to me like you are suffering from the poor perception of introversion which is forcing you to adopt a type which doesn't actually fit. Just because you think it's "better".

    Which gets back to the purpose this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #20
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not really. Jung defined extroversion and introversion independently of functions. These were refinements to the basic model.
    If you look at later work by people like Eysenck and the Big 5 model, E/I is the only concept that has usefully been retained.

    We know that there is a biological basis for E/I, not so the cognitive functions.
    Ya but just because we know something that doesnt mean its true. I am highly critical of seeing E or I as biological, I'ld be very careful in making such a statement. From my personal experience I've lived thru phases of high extroversion and through phases of high introversion, there wasnt really a clear line to me. There are times I'ld clearly say I am an E and times I'ld clearly say I am an I. There may be some truth to a biological connection but to prove that is as difficult as for example proving if homosexuality is nature or nurture.

    This is just misinformation about E/I, not what it really means. It is the misinformation that articles like the one in the OP are trying to undo.
    Well the op talks explicitly as well about social gatherings, so its not fully unuseful information. The social dynamic is way underestimated in all social or personality sciences imo. Those pseudo sciences can be very linear and look at the individuum as being autarkic. Thats a huge mistake in my eyes.

    It sounds to me like you are suffering from the poor perception of introversion which is forcing you to adopt a type which doesn't actually fit. Just because you think it's "better".

    Which gets back to the purpose this thread.
    I did not understand that.
    If you mean I have a poor perception of introversion, then I ask you, who defined what is a good perception ? Maybe I am an introverted extrovert, cause I have learnt about the world myself and not from only books but then created my own world out of it ?!
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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