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  1. #1
    Member Skip Foreplay's Avatar
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    Default Misguided Assumptions of Consciousness

    I have come to realize that there are levels of truth, (science for instance, knows it cannot demonstrate truth, but some theories are far better than others. Even the truth of geometry is not as true as the truth of experience, by virtue of the fact that experience requires no axiom, and is thus necessary and undeniable).

    I'll start with an erroneous assumption that I have held fast to, unreasonably I believe, for almost my entire life. It's the only one I'll put in this initial post so that the conversation may remain on topic - for a while at least).

    - "Consciousness is housed within the body and/or is a function of brain-states."

    First realize, if you have not yet, that we do not even have the broad strokes of what consciousness is, and therefore no sound method of studying it. I propose that the brain is most likely a sort of conduit, picking up on a ubiquitous consciousness manifest in many places, maybe even in all things. Note then, that consciousness and experience may be quite different. Unorthodox, but by no means silly or unreasonable. consciousness could be a property of the dirt itself, though the experience of dirt is, with almost total certainty I think, nonexistent. The brain then, could be akin to a radio. I am most interested to hear your thoughts - especially if you think this position is silly. I only hope that you explain yourself...

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I suggest looking this video and try to understand it:



    I know magnets has nothing to do with consciousness, but if you arent fimilar with neuropsychology already, i can only say that consciousness is created because one(or actually multiple) part of the brains send signal to another and consciousness is formed. The reason i can only say this is the same reason why feynman can only tell you this much on why magnets attract and repel each other.

    But if you want to understand it in more depth, i suggest reading this:
    http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/d/d_...12_cr_con.html

    And do note that there are different levels of explanations and explanations from different perspectives.

    And yes its true that there is no definition of consciousness that is shared by all people, but thats simply because its sooo complicated, its not an physical object and some people disagree with each other what constitutes as consciousness. But this doesent mean that there is no definition of consciousness or that its impossible to give one, it just means that people disagree about it with each others and to even understand it properly, you need to devote your life for it and even if you do, you cant explain it properly to people who havent also devoted their life for it.

    But i do agree that there is no 110% guarantee that brains create consciousness because, first of all as i mentioned the definition varies, so even if you would prove one, that might not prove others. Secondly, we dont fully understand brains and all their functions. But fromwhat we do understand and from what i have read and studied about the subject, i can say for 99.999% accuracy that brains create consciousness and for consciousness being something outside of our brains would be very unlikely.

    After you explain everything you know about how brains function, we might be able to discuss this further, but if i need to explain how neurons work, what actionpotential is etc etc. its just a waste of time to explain all this as it would take weeks and you most likely wouldnt even care to read it enough times to comprehend all of it.

    Ps. I didnt intend to sound mean, but this is the way it sadly goes
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  3. #3

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    I agree with your perspective about consciousness although with some slight amendments to make it compliant with my religious and psychological opinions.

  4. #4
    Member Skip Foreplay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I know magnets has nothing to do with consciousness, but if you arent fimilar with neuropsychology already, i can only say that consciousness is created because one(or actually multiple) part of the brains send signal to another and consciousness is formed. The reason i can only say this is the same reason why feynman can only tell you this much on why magnets attract and repel each other.

    But if you want to understand it in more depth, i suggest reading this:
    http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/d/d_...12_cr_con.html

    And do note that there are different levels of explanations and explanations from different perspectives.

    And yes its true that there is no definition of consciousness that is shared by all people, but thats simply because its sooo complicated, its not an physical object and some people disagree with each other what constitutes as consciousness. But this doesent mean that there is no definition of consciousness or that its impossible to give one, it just means that people disagree about it with each others and to even understand it properly, you need to devote your life for it and even if you do, you cant explain it properly to people who havent also devoted their life for it.

    But i do agree that there is no 110% guarantee that brains create consciousness because, first of all as i mentioned the definition varies, so even if you would prove one, that might not prove others. Secondly, we dont fully understand brains and all their functions. But fromwhat we do understand and from what i have read and studied about the subject, i can say for 99.999% accuracy that brains create consciousness and for consciousness being something outside of our brains would be very unlikely.

    After you explain everything you know about how brains function, we might be able to discuss this further, but if i need to explain how neurons work, what actionpotential is etc etc. its just a waste of time to explain all this as it would take weeks and you most likely wouldnt even care to read it enough times to comprehend all of it.

    Ps. I didnt intend to sound mean, but this is the way it sadly goes
    I don't know what part of what you said would have sounded mean. The post was fair; thanks for the video. I'm glad to be corrected on this issue. I have read a few ideas on consciousness before; Daniel Dennett had some ideas that really made sense and discussed consciousness as a 'mass of logarithmic functions' whose action (electrical and chemical) would manifest as consciousness if enough information was sent around, especially through the corpus collossum, so that a synthesis of syntax and semantics would be formed (and thus, language is crucial to consciousness) ((we can use the word 'language' a little loosely, here)).

    What I had understood though, made clear from a 'philosophy of death' course at yale from dr. shelley kagan, was that for all our efforts, the bridge between physical phenomena and experience is not being closed. We are gathering correlative data, but not causal. And it seems to me that consciousness is so far removed that we could never create an AI brain of some kind that we were certain was conscious, only predictably reactive, until vast headway in this area was made. (The area of consciousness, NOT the engineering part). Maybe my information is out of date, and I'd be thrilled if it is, but I'm not holding my breath on this one. I am VERY wary of reading too much into correlations. So, I'll read this article and maybe form a stronger opinion on the matter, thanks.

    Edit: He may not have spoken as much about the Corp Col as I implied. He only discussed how vital the left - right connection was. I wonder what the quality of consciousness would be for a person who was born without it?

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