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  1. #1
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Default Over-representation of iNtuiting, how to tell iNtuining from from extraverted Sensing

    On my continual quest for understanding and search for knowledge i happened upon this article...
    have a read.

    INTRO

    "Over the last four years, in the MBTI® Qualifying Programs, advanced programs and elsewhere, we found a disproportionate number of people who had reported preferences for the iNtuiting process while their behaviors seemed to resemble the Artisan-SP temperament pattern. This raised some questions such as: What is the relationship between temperament and Jung's typology? Can someone have one type and a different temperament? If not, what is going on here?"



    Why do you believe this article has been written?
    Do you think it is helpful?
    Does it make you wonder about your own type?
    What can be done with this information?
    Can it make babies?


    Discuss


    EDIT: Can someone please edit the title, i am only little and i can't fix it.
    Last edited by Betty Blue; 01-14-2012 at 05:48 PM. Reason: need help
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #2
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Bumpity bump
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #3
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    probably because the two different functions that are supposed to be a dichotomy really aren't so much of one... I use two apparently opposing functions simultaneously on a daily basis and it comes quite naturally to me

    people make a big deal about the fact that sensing and intuition are apparently so different when they really aren't... you can use one, the other or both at the same time like overlapping watercolors. That's why they are so confused- the human need to differentiate and separate- like the thoughts that races are apparently SOOO different when people are really all just the same
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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    The opposite of patterns is differences. Still trying to figure out how "sensing and patterns" got grouped as dichotomies. Actually its pretty obvious...people putting things together that dont belong together. This can be likened to a politician throwing some piddly crap in a bill to get it passed as a whole and then someone losing sight of this seperation and all of a sudden...2 become 1. 1 would be sensing in this case. I would like for someone to notice patterns or do anything without sensing.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    On my continual quest for understanding and search for knowledge i happened upon this article...
    have a read.

    INTRO

    "Over the last four years, in the MBTI® Qualifying Programs, advanced programs and elsewhere, we found a disproportionate number of people who had reported preferences for the iNtuiting process while their behaviors seemed to resemble the Artisan-SP temperament pattern. This raised some questions such as: What is the relationship between temperament and Jung's typology? Can someone have one type and a different temperament? If not, what is going on here?"
    "Can someone have one type" - what is that? Type of what?

    The MBTI is a confused hodge-podge of different personality elements. Cognitive patterns/behaviors/attitudes/beliefs are all jumbled into a single package-deal and sold wholesale to the public as a valid personality typing system. The very wording the article uses exposes the source of the confusion - which is conceptual.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #6
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    it would seem the obvious conclusion is the MBTI does not test very well for Se, because it is a holistic function, which many people (MBTI test writers included) seem not to differentiate from abstract.

    i appreciate how the article's conclusions revolve around far less blatantly obvious conclusions than the test not actually testing for what it is supposed to test for

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_
    Actually its pretty obvious...people putting things together that dont belong together.
    yep.

    --
    i do like that matrix, describing Se as "experience the experience", Si as "images from the past / universal shared history", Ne as "conceive from the experience", and Ni as "images from the future / universal shared symbols". the more i learn about S functions the more i am understanding that they are not particularly different from N functions, just another mirror, much as Ni is to Ne. in particular the Ni/Se and Ne/Si double mirrors are fascinating to me. flipped on both the concrete/abstract and introverted/extraverted mind axis.

    and this:

    Extraverted Sensing - Notices the rich detail in the whole forest - the trees, their color and texture, their sounds, their smells, the pattern of light and dark...

    Introverted Sensing - Notes that this forest has always been here and recalls being in a forest from childhood, smelling that smell and the fun of playing hide and seek behind the trees...

    Extraverted iNtuiting - Thinks of the fractal patterns, the wide range of possibilities in the forest, how this forest is part of the ecosystem and is affected by polllution from the city...

    Introverted iNtuiting - Recognizes that the forest is deeply symbolic of all of life in its interconnectedness and constant recycling and growth and foresees that this forest will soon be torn down for a housing development...
    i like the implications of the universal in dealing with Si and Ni - shared history and shared future. introversion seems more than just the tapping in to the individual - but also the tapping into access to certain internal knowledge that we all share.

    --

    Also, it is well-established that the SN and JP scales are intercorrelated with those reporting preferences for S also reporting preferences for J and N preferences correlated with P preferences. Is the iNtuiting "preference" an artifact of the instrument?


    actually wouldn't it be that P and J are artifacts of the instrument? to those of us who think mainly in functions, P and J are basically afterthoughts. anyway this seems a clear enough relationship... because S deals with reality and the present and J deals with external decision and task orientation, while N deals with abstraction and the future and P deals with external seeing and leaving options open... someone who is more realistic and present-focused is naturally going to be more likely to interact in the real world, as is someone with a J preference... whereas the N and P are more satisfied to see what life brings to them...

    --

    to answer your questions...

    Why do you believe this article has been written?
    mainly to note a discrepancy in testing, i assume. some SPs are testing N. what is amusing to me is that it's written in a "how interesting, let's study this" tone instead of a "well shit" tone. given, the temperaments sort of annoy me, because i think they're rather simplistic and arbitrary divisions.

    Do you think it is helpful?
    eh. kind of. i think it's good they're telling people, but honestly, anyone who's studied this stuff a bit could predict this sort of mixup. S for J ; N for P ; Se for N ; Ne for S ; Ti for J - the list goes on.

    Does it make you wonder about your own type?
    nope.

    What can be done with this information?
    personally i think we should dump the four-letter code and reduce to dom and aux function. it would result in less confusion.

    Can it make babies?
    http://www.makemebabies.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yep.

    --
    i do like that matrix, describing Se as "experience the experience", Si as "images from the past / universal shared history", Ne as "conceive from the experience", and Ni as "images from the future / universal shared symbols". the more i learn about S functions the more i am understanding that they are not particularly different from N functions, just another mirror, much as Ni is to Ne. in particular the Ni/Se and Ne/Si double mirrors are fascinating to me. flipped on both the concrete/abstract and introverted/extraverted mind axis.
    If u notice from that Si description it really isnt about sensing the external environment at all. Its internalized...which goes against an S type even being connected to there environment. They are head types. It also shows how Se sees the differences. To me Se is more related to...differentials...not sure its the right word, but it sounds right. I believe Ni is just an internalized version of Ne where we see whats in our head similiar to the difference between Se and Si.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Extraverted iNtuiting - Thinks of the fractal patterns, the wide range of possibilities in the forest, how this forest is part of the ecosystem and is affected by polllution from the city..." That's me, more or less. I might see possibilities (the various human uses for trees) and I might be reminded of fractals.

    Consider the first lines of The Fountainhead:

    Ni. "The water seemed immovable, the stone - flowing."

    Ne (possibilities). "He looked at the granite. To be cut, he thought, and made into walls. He looked at a tree. To be split and made into rafters. He looked at a streak of rust on the stone and thought of iron ore under the ground. To be melted and to emerge as girders against the sky."

    Consider in contrast the Si writing style and characters of Mickey Spillane.

    - The office was locked when I got there. I kicked on the door a few times and Velda clicked the lock back. When she saw who it was, she said, 'Oh, it's you!'
    'What do you mean - Oh, it's you. Surely you remember me, Mike Hammer, your boss.'
    'Poo. You haven't been here in so long I can't tell you from another bill collector.' I closed the door and followed her into my sanctum sanctorum. She had million-dollar legs, that girl, and she didn't mind showing them off. For a secretary she was an awful distraction. She kept her coal-black hair in a page-boy cut and wore tight-fitting dresses that made me think of the curves in the Pennsylvania Highway every time I looked at her. -
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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