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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    It sounds to me like this was an unfortunate attempt to court controversy for a thread, that's not a good thing, people are already too credulous and ideas have consequences.

    It would be a little like linking content about primal scream therapy and suggesting if you vote Obama's health reforms through you're obviously a fan.

    Raising awareness is something that can help people change the world for the better and heal. If people do not know that something bad is happening and that it is wrong, how can they a) avoid falling into participation with it, and b) work towards abolishing it.

    Children are still being subjected to and dying from things like re-birthing and other therapies. People still believe this is the right way to deal with children. It has not gone away yet.

    Considering you work in the field you are already actively concerned with providing alternative and effective therapy that consequently means vulnerable people can avoid turning to more extreme practices.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestripes View Post
    there is no name for this. "child abuse" is not an adequate definition because it is just two words strung together, nothing more.

    i started to read some of the stories by the people who had gone through this and i felt i was going to vomit. then i started reading about candace newmaker and i regretted checking this out altogether.

    @Lark:

    i have no intention to argue about any of this, but there is one fact that cannot be disputed: children like candace are DEAD. this is not a myth; it is all too real and, what is worst, it is irreversible. even if this happened in another setting - for example, if a patient died in restraints at a regular psychiatric facility - it would raise some valid issues about malpractice or possible patient abuse. in cases such as this, the issues escalate tenfold.

    i don't think any of this is about anti-psychiatry or any other ideological matters, or at any rate it should not be. it is about some people having PTSD, major depression or worse and others being dead.

    besides, i don't think that the author of the original post was talking about situations where a pediatric patient has to be restrained by necessity because they are a danger to themselves or to others. that is the whole point. this is about physical restraint being applied even when it is not required, simply because it is part of the therapeutic practice (i suppose i should have put this in inverted commas). which can never be justified. ever. even if the patient is not killed as a result. also, if a patient is repeatedly denied basic necessities such as water despite begging for it or is forced to lie in their own vomit and excrement, or if their breathing is obstructed on purpose (as in someone taking a pillow, placing it over their face and sitting on top), it is gross malpractice regardless of where or under what circumstances it takes place. this is putting it really really mildly.

    THIS is the issue. not anyone's theoretical definitions of what disorders are or how they ought to be treated. it is ultimately irrelevant where this even happened, or which branch of psychiatry or psychotherapy the doctor in question belonged to, because this MUST NOT BE no matter what theoretical framework is being used.

    and homicide/manslaughter is homicide/manslaughter is homicide/manslaughter.
    ^^^THIS.^^^

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clandestine View Post
    Raising awareness is something that can help people change the world for the better and heal. If people do not know that something bad is happening and that it is wrong, how can they a) avoid falling into participation with it, and b) work towards abolishing it.

    Children are still being subjected to and dying from things like re-birthing and other therapies. People still believe this is the right way to deal with children. It has not gone away yet.

    Considering you work in the field you are already actively concerned with providing alternative and effective therapy that consequently means vulnerable people can avoid turning to more extreme practices.
    I dont really see any scale ranging towards "extreme" practices, there's right and wrong in childcare. Most of my practice is about risk management and trying to manage consequences with someone until they mature and learn to a point where they are aware of them and can manage them themselves, anything high risk and with the appearences of a "magic bullet" would be shot down immediately.

    I highlighted the bit which read to most like The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions its probably the raison d'etre of every activist I've ever met and some of them have convinced me that, whatever good may actually result from their actions profiling certain concerns or causes, having something to do and how to occupy the time is as big a part of it in the parts of the world with the most "safe" activism.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    This isn't about attachment theory, even if it's trying to use that name. It's about a practice where kids are literally getting the life crushed out of them.
    yes, attachment theory is a different topic and actually has validity; it even plays into our typology discussions here (especially with the enneagram system).

    This "attachment therapy" practice (which seems to be limited in scope / a fringe practice when taken to this degree) has been around for some time, and a news story about some child being killed in the practice of said therapy seems to pop up every few years or so and typically results in prosecution and legal punishment.

    I believe I remember first seeing such an article in the early/mid 90's; it seemed to follow on the tail end of the "repressed memory / satanic ritual abuse" epidemic of the 80's, where some innocent people were jailed based on foundless testimony created by memories installed during therapy.

    Children need to be protected, and the tragedies are horrible -- like someone has said, the children are DEAD and that needs to be stopped -- but it's not a dominant form of therapy in practice as far as I know.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yet you proceed to, with quite a bit of hand wringing and emoting.

    Look if you want to discuss this issue, the use of restraint, of necessity, in therapeutic facilities with children then I'm open to dialogue and discussion.

    If you're going to pretend that its common practice that children are being physically restricted in their extrement and vomit, unable to draw breath and then dying as a consequence and raise a hue and cry about that then go ahead. Whatever floats your boat.
    Ofc restraining kids(or adults) that may harm themselves might be the only choise in some situations. But this wasnt just about that..
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Turtledove's Avatar
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    From the posts I've read so far, I don't think I can stomach watching the videos. It sounds to me like what they did to those poor Jewish kids and mentally ill children in Nazi Germany a long time ago, or at least can be an equivalent to that.
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  7. #27
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    I get the idea behind this. When TK was a baby he once had a very terrible tantrum and I instinctively wrapped him tightly in his blanket, and held him until he cried himself out. That worked because he was a baby, and the feeling gave him security and comfort.

    The problem is these are older more cognitive children and this "therapy" is more like reality TV. Pushing people to their breaking point with no real purpose. All it is going to do is either piss the child off, and cause them to distrust people, or cause a nasty case of Stockholm's. Both of which are psychologically damaging and lead to severely damaging attachment issues later on.

    Stupid ass psychologists. Why don't we just bore some holes...


    *I have to edit my post because last night I only watched the first video. After reading the transcript of Candice, I am completely disgusted, and it is nothing like what I thought it was. I hope all the people involved with this went to prison for life.

    At no time ever is it acceptable to harm a child, or restrict them from oxygen, and expose them to filth, while mocking and trying to cause psychological damage. This really made me sick to read.
    Last edited by ThatGirl; 12-31-2011 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    Man, that woman is fucked up. I only watched the first video and it freaked me out already.

  9. #29
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I think it would have been more helpful to present less biased links in the OP-the problem is that whenever I see overly emotional appeals, I cannot help but want to be skeptical and look for the statistics and facts of the situation.

    Children dying and abusive situations are horrible and should be stopped-but I am not yet convinced that is commonly occuring? Again statistics would be helpful-how often does this type of therapy occur? How do they measure effectivity? How often does it result in harm-physical vs alleged emotional? What training do these individuals have? If there may be benefit, can it be done in control in patient settings ? and so on.

    I find the method interesting as my older 15 yo enfp son had serious issues with uncontrollable rage and and anger starting at about 2 until about 11. As an infant he was extremely hypersensitive. Between 2 and 5 he went to five diffrent preschools and kept getting expelled as he would melt down so badly everyday. We finally had him staying with a former daycare worker-an ENFJ with a degree in social work. What she found to work to calm him when he was at his most violent, was to restrain him with her arms and just let him fight and scream and yell-after 20 minutes of this he would collapse in her arms and just sob for a bit and then be okay. Once is school we resorted to meds such as ritalin to help him maintain control over his emotions. At 11, as his Fi emerged, he started to calm down drastically and is now an extremely thoughtful sweet kid at 15 and on no meds

    It was like he was unable to provide his own boundaries to contain his emotions and they overwhelmed him.

    And I see what the lady is doing in that video-she is restablishing boundaries and trying to force the kids into sharing emotions by breaking down the self defensive walls they have built-forced healing by exposure. I see it as being extremely similar to patterns you see in a dom-sub relationship-where the sub feels safe and emotionally open when given protective boundaries by the dom.

    So I "get" what they are attempting to do..but the yelling bothers me a lot, the forced, non-willingness of the interaction bothers me, the ancedotal deaths and abuse bother me, lots of questions and concerns... if it was me, it would feel like emotional rape, having someone force to me to expose me feelings, but if it is effective at allowing these kids to learn more normal interaction skills by restablishment of trust and boundaries, there could be value in it. We put kids in boot camps, make them visit prisons, have tough loves programs, incarcerate them, lock them up in mental wards and drug the crap out of them as teens-if some of that can be avoided by restablishment of normal attachment patterns, perhaps there is value is these short, intese sessions. Especially if these parents have worked through the traditional mental health routes and have acheived no resolution..

    need data on effectivity I think to reach a conclusion...

    edit-after watching more of the videos, By far the most disturbing part is the laying on top of the children. It seems there would be much better ways to accomplish the same objectives, but in safer ways.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think it would have been more helpful to present less biased links in the OP-the problem is that whenever I see overly emotional appeals, I cannot help but want to be skeptical and look for the statistics and facts of the situation.
    I'll second that. Sensationalism shouldnt be needed to make a point.

    To be honest a lot of this rebirthing and whatever is reminiscent of the "reliving of trauma, to provide relief from repression, to resolve trauma" thinking which was around back when Freud was considering "hysteria" and "shell shock" was an illness.

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