I'm sorry, I don't think I was being clear. I wasn't saying pure BPD's can't be sexual (or highly sexual), but commenting that I think a vast, vast majority of those reports of BPD's being highly sexual are actually HPD cases.
Why do you believe so? Tons of bpd's indulge in promiscuous sex. Most, I would think. That's their hook, many times. I don't think many bpd's think twice about hopping into bed with men. It's not something they were taught to care about, and their heads aren't in the right place. They have no boundaries stopping them.
At the same time, I think it's a good idea to consider other disorders, as you've done. HPD can be comorbid with BPD as well, and patients can be misdiagnosed.
Why do you believe so? Tons of bpd's indulge in promiscuous sex. Most, I would think. That's their hook, many times. I don't think many bpd's think twice about hopping into bed with men. It's not something they were taught to care about, and their heads aren't in the right place.
At the same time, I think it's a good idea to consider other disorders, as you've done. HPD can be comorbid with BPD as well, and patients can be misdiagnosed.
Sorry, had to leave earlier. But I see you've added pretty much everything to your post now. I will respond to both things.
Stuff you added: Are you familiar with what HPD sexuality is supposedly like? HPD sexuality is not merely sexual hyperactivity or sexual hunger (explorativeness etc.). HPD sexuality is a very tantalizing and intoxicating seductiveness. I say this because I am not deeply familiar with BPD sexuality, but from what you said, BPD sexuality seems to equate to just hypersexuality (which I've read and understand to be a core component of BPD). If that is what BPD's "BPD is sexual too" stake then the two types of sexuality are very different and that type of sexuality is not the impression I got when I read BPD horror stories that involved marked sexuality.
"Why do you believe so?": The last sentence of the above is pretty much my reason for thinking a vast majority of BPD cases involving stuff like Silk mentioned are more likely HPD-BPD cases than BPD or BPD-HPD. Could be that my interpretation of the survivor stories I read is wrong, though. Not sure, no way to tell now, etc.
But the two types of sexuality are distinctly different, if I'm understanding you right and you speak the truth on BPD, and my interpretation of those stories from long ago is that the sexuality was not just hypersexuality, it was the HPD type (aka pure BPD is crossed out since existence of HPD essence is confirmed), and the impression was that the [HPD] sexual was the defining mark of the story aka the person (aka HPD primary - over BPD - aka better fit as an "HPD case").
No objective proof unless you can see what I'm saying in the stories, but since you're already interpreting the stories' points as being diaries of BPD, the stuff that doesn't deal with HPD sexuality is likely going to still be seen as the point, and it'd be very odd the stories were so obvious anyhow. All a matter of interpretation, perspective - subjective.
(When I say "BPD and HPD are different" I'm not really talking about the official labels as IIRC both labels are going to be scrapped or altered significantly, but I am talking about two different personality types and saying the type known as BPD to me is distinctly different from the HPD type of person.)
Yes, I understand HPD. I've been amongst women with HPD.
We just disagree, I think. I don't think Silkroad, for instance, has said anything in this thread to make me associate that her friend has HPD. Sounds exactly like a BPD case to me. BPD's are known to pick up men using their sexuality, and then use them. It doesn't take intoxicating, flaunting sexuality to easily pick up men or to be seen as sexually-interesting to a man. In fact, many times, not being HPD can work in their favor. I think that yes, it is subjective and when you are a pretty mild personality, it can seem that bpd activity is more of a flaunting sexuality than it is just hypersexuality (simply wanting more sex can seem to be flaunting sexuality).
At the end of the day, in a social setting, women with HPD will be far-and-above on the meter for "winning" at the sexuality games. A BPD with no HPD will not feel the need to live out their lives with flaunting sexuality as a focus. BPD's many times appear to be normal. HPD's stand out as being overly-sexual, period. As I said, think Pam Anderson (hpd) vs. the old Angelina Jolie (bpd).
Originally Posted by SilkRoad
I think that in a relationship, in the early stages a lot of people can mistake what is full-on crazy drama and over-the-top intensity and jealousy for exciting sexuality and closeness. This seems to be the pattern in much/most of what I read online in people's experiences. They even described how the woman (usually) would be crazily sexual to begin with but then became "frigid" later.
"Just ask Mike. He was a 27-year-old grad student in San Francisco, happily ensconced in a stable long-distance relationship when he met the ethereal Elizabeth at a party. Their chemistry was immediate. They talked until dawn. Soon, Mike was breaking up with his girlfriend to fall headlong into a passionate affair with Elizabeth. Their sexual trysts were unlike anything he’d experienced—breathless and overwhelming.
“We were turned in on each other and to hell with the rest of the world,” he recalled. “It really felt like she was losing herself to me and I felt the same way. And that’s what made it so hot. …She didn’t seem to inhabit the same world I did. There was just something enchanted about it, something like going back to childhood about it.”
I think that once you have had bpd sex, and you force yourself into a "normal" sex life, there can be cravings. I think boundaries must be there to control the cravings for unhealthy sex. It's just like an addiction. Sometimes circumstances take hold in which a person finds a weakness. And yes, it's just as difficult as fighting alcoholism. I think if you can find outlets for it that are non-risky and acceptable, it seems to work. I suppose it's like telling yourself "I will only drink one drink per day" as an alcoholic. You create boundaries. I don't think the true nature ever changes; your management of it does.
"BPD’s are often bright women, quick-thinkers with a gift for debate. And with the right kind of treatment, they can become accomplished individuals with thriving careers."
Just clarifying my side, no arguments that can be qualified in any manner.
"Silk's friend"? I was talking about FDG's case, which Silk said the stuff I quoted her to.
Re: the full quote: Those things could be either HPD or BPD or HPD-BPD or BPD-HPD. I only think of HPD because of the last line, which is not a BPD characteristic in the way i'm imagining those stories silk read to be like since I have read similar "BPD" stories and, as said, they described HPD sexuality not bpd sexuality. But, back to the first sentence of this paragraph: Those things can either be HPD or BPD - for instance: "Drama"? What kind of drama? One-of-the-people-is-characterized-by-uncontrollable-instability-and-irrationality-and-it's-making-the-relationship-crazy drama (BPD), or extreme-passion drama (HPD)? And, "over-the-top intensity"? Is this helplessly unstable emotionality (BPD) or ... well, just plain intensity (strong feeling, passion issue again)? And, jealousy? BPD jealousy is known, sure, because they're deathly afraid of abandonment, but HPD desires acceptance so intensely at their core that they can become demanding of the person who they've picked as their provider of self-esteem, and demandingness can be synonymous with jealousy in a million and one ways.
What you said about people conflating sexual eagerness and tantalizing and intoxicating sexual seductiveness may be true, but unless a person makes overt errors elsewhere you have to accept they're speaking correctly or you can't get anywhere (no information could be taken as true).
With my post all I was doing was throwing out a general cautionary word-to-the-wise based on my own mileage. definitely wasn't saying any mention of sexuality means it can't be BPD, just saying I'm not sure if those Joe Smith reports of "BPD" are actually BPD. The importance of this distinction being that HPD and BPD focus on distinctly different issues, and painting one with the wrong brush would result in incorrect understanding (which is a problem for a myriad of different reasons depending on your interests).
Edit: You added more again. h/o
I read the Mike/tryst thing earlier today. I would UNDOUBTEDLY agree that Mike's situation was BPD sex. The "losing yourself [to each other]" thing is what makes it BPD sex.
But, here's the problem. How is that a focus on sex - as in, mostly the physical side? That just seems to be emotional clusterfucking that happened to involve penetration. HPD sexuality is characterized by a large focus on the physical side of sex. I don't mean that like they're all 10/10 HB's (hot bods) and they know how to work it, but their - HPD's - sexual allure revolves, to a great extent, around the physical aspect of things, AS OPPOSED TO an emotional or otherwise intangible aspect (as with your BPD case).
Again, I was not saying a BPD could not be sexual or sexually attractive. But HPD sexuality is starkly different and my opinion was the stories I read on this one site that made the exact same remarks about the PD'd's sexuality that Silk stated ("they were crazily sexual in the beginning, and then out of nowhere, for no reason, -BOOM-, all the sexual passion was gone"). Mike's story does not have the same very distinct happenings as Silk's story did (Silk's story = what I said in qoutes).
BPD's/bright women: The same is said for HPD women. I can see why this is by definition true for HPD women (they're like level 100/100 masters at people manipulation, and being able to do that requires a very peculiar cunningness&cleverness -> intelligence), but do not understand why this is said to be true for "emotions-dictate-everything-I-do-and-have-very-low-functioning-rationality" (BPD) person.
It just comes down to this: Any of the behaviors in this thread can be marks of bpd. There is nothing here that describes an HPD, in it's totality, and most of the things described show me mostly-bpd behaviors. Going by their descriptions, it sounds very possible that bpd is the answer.
This sounds possibly HPD though, which FDG wrote: "very dependant on sex as approval mechanism". My old friend and I used to trade stories on who we had bedded, and eye-out those we were looking to bed, yet I don't believe I had a trace of hpd. I don't really enjoy being in the spotlight. FDG's situation is: Possibly a combination of HPD and BPD. He seems the type to find this, at one time or another. Although I wouldn't necessarily say that sex itself as an approval mechanism or drama is not possible with bpd only. I've certainly been involved in my share of drama in the past, with hanging up the phone 25 times, stalking people who made me angry and wouldn't talk to me, etc. Of course, this was 20 years ago and as time goes on, people calm down even without treatment.
Exactly! I was totally floored that your uncle would have another child with her after that, let alone 2. The dysfunctionals and the enablers always find one another. It's eerie.
I feel bad for all the children, you really can't blame them no matter how they turn out. With parents like that their doom was sealed from birth. I wonder if the older daughter has a strange heightened sensitivity to appearances partly due to knowing in a vague way how kookoo her family is.
I know! I feel like there is some secret underground magazine that they all subscribe to and put ads in to find each other.
I do feel bad for the kids. The oldest one is 25 now, though, and I feel like it's time for her to grow up and start taking responsibility for her own actions. The only way the cycle can stop is if a choice is made to stop being a victim and start being proactive. Especially now that she is going to be a mom... she needs to step up to the plate and stop blaming the world for her problems.
More of my sympathy goes to the youngest because she was the "replacement" child, and never met her older brother... but yet is there because of him. It's very sad.
I think your uncle sounds like he is still in denial about things, including his own culpability. I'm surprised his daughters still come and see him. But even with dysfunction, neglect, and/or abuse the child's need to bond with their parent is incredibly strong, perhaps stronger because they need approval and/or a safe haven. Right now the whole family is still in denial.
They are the kings and queens of denial. My uncle was in denial for 22 years that his wife wasn't crazy. And she is the definition of denial.
I think your uncle's karma is going to include many years of extremely turbulent and distressing altercations with his children who vacillate between feeling affection for him and being unholy pissed at his crappy parenting. I can't say I blame them. They are either going to find ways to punish him for the rest of their lives and/or disengage. It sounds like his eldest daughter is already on that path and probably wants to punish the entire extended family to some extent for failing her. On some level, she feels resentment for the extended family members who were in a position to intervene and probably blames them unconsciously or consciously for the free floating rage she now has to carry around. So something like "I'm not coming to your wedding" on top of her childhood is a table flipping screaming banshee moment. I'm not surprised her wedding didn't go smoothly. That rage is a gift from her family. I kinda shudder thinking about the years in store for her.
He's been enjoying turbulent years for awhile now thanks to those girls living with their mother alone for so long. What they really needed was a bunch of individual and group/family therapy years and years ago... but they didn't think they had problems.
@bold, nice phrasing ... and very apt I would say.
You know, one of my friends bought another friend couples' therapy as a wedding present... I doubt that would go over well with your cousin but...seems apt here.
I would love to, but it would be taken as a declaration of war by her. Their relationship is weird too... he's 10 years older than her... and he just gives off this super creepy vibe to me. I have started avoiding him now because of it. He thinks I am hilarious and tries to corner me in corners to talk to me and always puts his hand on my arm or something and leans in saying "we should get to know each other better sometime." W-E-I-R-D.
I have another friend who came from some extraordinary abuse and dysfunction in the home and though she loves her mother dearly now that she is married and has children of her own she realizes she needs to minimize contact with her mom. Having children of her own stirred up a lot of anger and probably rage at her mother for allowing so much abuse to happen to her and her siblings. So she keeps a safe distance now. There will probably be more conversations in the future. Actually confronting and addressing these things with the people involved and ideally coming to a point of acknowledgement/forgiveness is the only way to move past the dysfunction. I feel so bad for your cousins that they are stuck in the grips of it still. Without intervention it's going to be years before the younger one even realizes what's hit her and can put a name to things.
that is very sad. but it is nice that she has moved on to a different point and has found a way to function within the dysfunction in a healthy way. I am not a mother, and I am not very 'mothery"... but what bothers me the most in these situations is how the kids are the ones who pay the price. I would hope that I would have the courage to know that in that kind of a situation and get them out.
I fear that what is going to happen is just some giant massive blow-up on a volcanic scale. The youngest one is going away for college (even though it's only 30 min from home) and I really really hope that this helps give her the distance needed to be her own person. I also hope that she deals with whatever she feels via a positive outlet like writing or music or talking with friends/counselor... and not going to parties and getting drunk like her sister did. I know that she wants to be an English major and was excited to learn that I was one too, so I sent her a message on facebook opening the door that if she wants to chat about writing, I am all eyes. Hoping that even if she doesn't confide in me, that just having an option such as this might help. It's about all I can do that doesn't border on being too invasive.
It's amazing how 1 person's problem essentially fireballs into generations worth of grief.
I know! It's rather scary how much damage one person can do... One of my best friends' mom has BPD. My best friend has chosen the path of not wanting to be involved with any guy other than brief sexual flings. I think she may have lost count of how many guys she has slept with, but she was already up to 40 when we were 20, soo... yeah. Her sister, on the other hand, has never been without a boyfriend/husband/fiance since she was 11. She just got married for the second time, and is already lining up who she would move onto in case her marriage doesn't last. They are both in their 30's now and their mom still affects them with her demands and anger. It makes me sad to see.
Did the ex-wife ever say *why* she wanted to kill your uncle? I'm curious about her own family (parents, siblings) now.
She said he was making her do it because he wouldn't listen to her. After they got divorced, she mailed a huge letter to everyone in our family, stating "her side of the story because she knew he was lying about her." Her version was so bizarre. Nothing was her fault, it was all his fault or someone else'.
I don't know much about her family... but the little I know... was very strange. My memory is very fuzzy because her parents died when I was little, but I think it was something super crazy like a murder-suicide kind of a thing. I just remember hearing about how there was blood all over the house. I know that before she met my uncle she was a motorcycle chick who rode around the country with some gang and did drugs with them. then she saw my uncle and started stalking him until he asked her on a date ( i know) and then she told him she was pregnant so they got married, and oops! she wasn't pregnant... and yeah. She has some siblings still but they don't have great relationships (they were the side of the family at the wedding that looked like they had stepped out of the movie Deliverance).
I had no idea BPD was considered dangerous to others. I only thought people with BPD were dangers to themselves and caused a lot of emotional turmoil in their relationships.
I think my ex-aunt is an extreme case. We've tried talking to my uncle about things (like turn on your damn security alarm) but he refuses to do it. So I think we are all half expecting a police call someday because he still doesn't take her as a serious threat.
BPD can't be cured either, and can only be treated to whatever extent the patient will allow. I have a feeling that with extreme cases, it is probably impossible to do much with them. You can't change what you don't acknowledge, and BPD is all about not acknowledging one's own actions.
I agree that simply expressing emotion or engaging in inappropriate behavior does not make one fall under any of these categories, but it's pretty understandable to look at such behavior on a spectrum, and to consider that a lot of these disorders are essentially an EFP getting too caught up in their own Fi(Si). Interestingly enough, learning to detach, a la DBT, can pretty understandably be seen as tertiary development: choosing to look at things through a Te filter as opposed to just the Fi one.
Frankly, I think it's important for EFPs to realize this.
I cant say I agree with your thoughts on being caught up in Fi(Si). Assuming we limit the discussion to specifically ENFPs-It seems actually a total lack of FiSi editing that makes a BPD. (ENFPs with no Si and all Ne and delightful fun but are extremely Narcissitic, playing the world to their own insecure whims and needs, endlessly denying the hurt they inflict upon others.)
In a BPD ENFP, The intense over-valuation and deep dive into the other is NeFi in overdrive-an intense search for self-worth, but found in the reflection of other's adoration-as the person lacks internal self-worth via their own FiSi. There is also limited FiSi-thus the person is endlessly jerked around by their own NeFi to "feel" the moment. Then when the person gets hurt, the extreme backlash is a gigantic Te bitchslap. Because the Fi is very sensitive, to protect the ego (self-worth) the other critical person MUST become Fi judged in a negative manner-ie evil-to protect the Fi of the one hurt.
Oscilalations between these two extremes lead to the the Black and white evaluation of others. Others are either wonderful and a source of affirmation or hideously evil-based upon the negative feedback they offer. It is a lack of refinement in the ability (or willingness) to make clear Fi judgments of others. (ENTP Narcisstic PD's also exhibit this B&W mode of thinking but centered on respect from others.)
I suspect most enfps exhibit Fi judgments that are more simplistic and black or white than an INFP-but with time we constantly edit those values and prune them to make them more refined. Nowdays it is like an unberable itch in myself-I have to understand flaws in my own Fi reasoning and prune them to be more correct-thus endlessly self dissecting and self-questioning my own assumptions and conclusions, a constant wieghing and measuring. I cant say another is "evil" because as soon as I try to, I can see their perspective and realize I need to learn more-I'd like to say they are evil, no doubt, but hahaha, my own Fi says "No way, quit being lazy and figure out the real answer".
BPDs will also use Te to develop rational reasons for why it was okay to do whatever they did-actual abuse of te. All enfps use Te for this to some extent-but most snap back into Fi and recognize the part they play in their own issues....BPD enfps have a real issue not doing this.
What makes a BPD enfp different from an young enfp, is that they cannot seem to learn and remember their fuck ups. You are correct that they fixate on the hurt of Fi from the past-not uncommon as it is the source of our core values-but they cant edit the past and move forward or grow to accept reponsibility for the effects of their actions upon others or their own life.
A BPD ENFP at 20, is likely just an enfp having a time tough time growing up-by 30, if they learned from their mistakes, they can be very successful, even if totally bonkers at 20.
A BPD ENFP at 45, is a person who has never learned to learn.
So I'd say in a BPD ENFP you are seeing a couple of things:
Rudimentary Fi judgements due to protection of Fi in a hostile environment as a child
Use of Te to rationalize inappropriate behavior and provide a violent defensive barrier to protect core Fi
Extreme lack of self worth (associated with Fi/ego) thus a need for constant affirmation and an inability to cope with negative feedback
And most importantly-the inability to learn from one's past-Si and edit FiSi to become accountable.
And as mentioned by others-BPD isnt exhibiting behaviors such as these occasionally or when young-it is to the extent that they are severly disrupting the person's life and the life of those around them.
To believe that bpd affects one mbti type more often than another is imo, incorrect. From what I have seen during recovery, any type can be a borderline, and many of the borderlines were introverts and cutters. One type did not stand out as being more susceptible to develop the disorder, and the lady who runs the bpdr site I frequented is actually INTJ. The disorder affects every type. Type does affect how the disorder will manifest itself.
Also, I don't think we can decide how the functions would act in someone with bpd. There are 256 shades of bpd, not one. I, for instance, never rationalized any of my behaviors. I suppose some do. I just disassociated them away. I don't know whether I thought they were right or wrong; I just did them and forgot what I had done. Rinse, repeat. I also did not need any more than a normal amount of affirmation. I think this process can go on until something blows up, and I think that many bpds are simply living for the moment and being swept away by the tides. It's an instinctual existence.
I think for some bpd's, there's nothing to rationalize, as they believe they are simply performing acts of justice. I see that in myself today, although I am just more level-headed about it, and the acts of justice are not committed for things that are not sensibly wrongs. When you are very, very sensitive and lack an outer skin, as many bpd's do, it feels like a mountain when it is a small molehill. And bpd's will seek revenge for these acts that others have committed to their person. So it looks like someone acting normal from the outside, while the other is insane. What it really feels like is someone stabbing you in the heart, and then you stabbing them back.
I think "no cure" means you can't take a pill and it's gone. However, recovered pretty-much means cured. When a person makes it to the reasonable levels of functioning, they are said to be "cured". Some symptoms may flair up every now and then under stress, but the illness is gone. http://bpd.about.com/od/treatments/f/BPDcure.htm
So, does this mean there is a cure for BPD? Not exactly. There are a number of effective treatments for BPD. These treatments can result in such substantial symptom reduction for some individuals that by the end of treatment they might be considered "recovered" or "cured."
But, not everyone experiences such dramatic symptom reduction. Many people who undergo treatment for BPD continue to have some symptoms, but find the symptoms to be much more tolerable, and report that they are able to function far better in their lives. The bottom line? There are treatments for BPD that are remarkably effective and may produce a "cure" in some people. But, even for those who do not fully recover from BPD, treatment is extremely helpful.
I might have it. I've been to a clinic, but I got another diagnosis. I've read a lot about it and it reads much like my personality. I think it might be helpful to talk to psychologist. I'm doing a psychotherapy at the moment.