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  1. #61
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    It's definitely true. I slightly recognized these tendencies in myself during the first 4 months of my relationship with a BPD girl, but the drama was absolutely too unattractive. Plus I have a big ego and I couldn't believe a word of what she periodically said of my personality, my intelligence, my body, etc. (lots and lots of negative stuff), so I lost all the respect. I could see some "milder" guys having more trouble with that.
    Yup, those type of people will often blame themselves for problems and a person with BPD is prone to blaming others.

    I also think people without much relationship experience who pride themselves on being loyal can be drawn in and caught. It's so important to make sure each party is being treated well in a relationship. I think a lot of people involved with those with BPD fall asleep to their own relationship needs.

  2. #62
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    Yup, those type of people will often blame themselves for problems and a person with BPD is prone to blaming others.

    I also think people without much relationship experience who pride themselves on being loyal can be drawn in and caught. It's so important to make sure each party is being treated well in a relationship. I think a lot of people involved with those with BPD fall asleep to their own relationship needs.
    A codependent's needs are compatible with a borederline's needs. This is why the borderline will not improve when they are living with a codependent.

    ------------------

    Codependency:

    Denial patterns:

    I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
    I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
    I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well-being of others.
    I lack empathy for the feelings and needs of others.
    I label others with my negative traits.
    I can take care of myself without any help from others.
    I mask my pain in various ways such as anger, humor, or isolation.
    I express negativity or aggression in indirect and passive ways.
    I do not recognize the unavailability of those people to whom I am attracted.

    Low self-esteem patterns:

    I have difficulty making decisions.
    I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
    I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
    I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
    I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
    I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
    I constantly seek recognition that I think I deserve.
    I am jealous of the relationships between others I would like to have as my own.
    I have difficulty admitting that I made a mistake.
    I need to appear to be right in the eyes of others and will even lie to look good.
    I perceive myself as superior to others.
    I look to others to provide my sense of safety.
    I have difficulty getting started, meeting deadlines, and completing projects.
    I have trouble setting healthy priorities.

    Avoidance patterns:

    I act in ways that invite others to reject, shame, or express anger toward me.
    I judge harshly what others think, say, or do.
    I avoid emotional, physical, or sexual intimacy as a means of maintaining distance.
    I allow my addictions to people, places, and things to distract me from achieving intimacy in relationships.
    I use indirect and evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation.
    I diminish my capacity to have healthy relationships by declining to use all the tools of recovery.
    I suppress my feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable.
    I pull people toward me, but when they get close, I push them away.
    I refuse to give up my self-will to avoid surrendering to a power that is greater than myself.
    I believe displays of emotion are a sign of weakness.
    I withhold expressions of appreciation.

    Compliance patterns:

    I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
    I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
    I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
    I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
    I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
    I accept sex and/or sexual attention when I want love.
    I am afraid to express my beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they differ from those of others.
    I make decisions without regard to the consequences.
    I give up my truth to gain the approval of others or to avoid change.

    Control patterns:

    I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
    I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
    I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
    I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
    I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
    I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
    I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.
    I demand that my needs be met by others.
    I use charm and charisma to convince others of my capacity to be caring and compassionate.
    I use blame and shame to emotionally exploit others.
    I refuse to cooperate, compromise, or negotiate.
    I adopt an attitude of indifference, helplessness, authority, or rage to manipulate outcomes.
    I have obsessive, compulsive thinking patterns and cannot focus on daily activities.
    I use terms of recovery in an attempt to control the behavior of others.
    I pretend to agree with others to get what I want.
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  3. #63
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    *edit* im on my ipod and cant scroll or peruse the forum easily. The points I bring up might have already been addressed in thr thread so if so just another 2 cents thrown in*

    Wow. "And he didnt fight for custody". Was he out to save himself? That sounds like a "Cybil" case where the kids fall through the cracks. Omg the psychological torture those kids must have grown up with...

    I guess this is where the discussion comes in (if it didnt bappen already) about mental health and the lack of awareness and safety measures 20 years ago and still today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    My uncle's ex-wife has it... and I am 99% sure their oldest daughter has it too.

    It's one of the scariest psychology disorders that I have studied and come in contact with personally.

    On the surface she has always seemed very.... (fake) "nice" and "quiet" and ultra religious. My parents and I have always felt there was something off about her, but we never saw much of actual evidence to support these feelings. She made us feel crazy for thinking she was crazy because our intuition was going through the roof screaming "danger will robinson!! danger!!" and yet there wasn't much you could point to.

    About five years ago, my uncle finally had enough and divorced her. What it took was her therapist calling him and telling him to leave the house because his wife had confessed that she was planning on killing him when she got home. He opened up to us about what had gone on during their 23 year marriage. Their first son was born still-born... and the likely cause was that she used to punch her stomach when she was angry with my uncle, and threaten to call the police and claim he beat her if he told anyone. They had another son a few years later, and a daughter a couple years after that. We had an ice storm in Minnesota one day when the son was 6 and she took both kids out on a drive... and wrapped their car around at telephone pole, instantly killing the son. Looking back, we are all pretty convinced that she was trying to kill all three of them. They had another daughter as a "replacement child" a few years after that. The last couple years of their marriage, they slept in separate rooms and my uncle would move a dresser in front of his door each night because he was so worried.

    When they got divorced, he didn't fight for custody, so she got both daughters and home schooled them. The oldest is already starting to act like her mom with the fake outer shell, and the creepy vibe. The youngest is practically catatonic, and never smiles.

    So what to do about it? Run away. Run far away. I have two friends who know someone with this and it has majorly messed up their own lives. (Real mother in one case, and husband's ex-wife in another.)
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  4. #64
    violaine
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    @ICUP - True. So true.

    On a side note, a person I know of peripherally, strongly asserts that codependency doesn't exist. I thought that was an odd position. Then I found out that she likely has BPD.

    I wish more people were informed about such dynamics before they went out into the dating world. It's such an unhappy dance for those two parties.

  5. #65
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    *edit* im on my ipod and cant scroll or peruse the forum easily. The points I bring up might have already been addressed in thr thread so if so just another 2 cents thrown in*

    Wow. "And he didnt fight for custody". Was he out to save himself? That sounds like a "Cybil" case where the kids fall through the cracks. Omg the psychological torture those kids must have grown up with...

    I guess this is where the discussion comes in (if it didnt bappen already) about mental health and the lack of awareness and safety measures 20 years ago and still today.
    He didn't fight because custody automatically goes to the mother in our state, unless you can prove drug use or danger to the children. He did some small research and discovered that it would cost him tens of thousands of dollars to just fight it in court. He was broke because she cashed out all of their savings while they were separated. The daughters were also already brainwashed at that point and she threatened my uncle that if he tried to take them from her, she would accuse him of sexually molesting them... and they would back her up. She is one fucked up mess. (And this all occured only a few years ago.. so maybe 2005,6?)

    the youngest is about to turn 18 and she's going away for college. I am pretty sure she will have some sort of mental breakdown or craziness occur once she is free.

    It's very scary to watch this go on and not be able to do anything about it. The woman wrote me this 10 page letter when my mom died last year... It started off "normal" saying she was sorry to hear my mom had died, but then went on a 9 page tirade about my uncle and how he had poisoned my mind with lies. 12 kinds o' cray cray that one.

    The problem I have with the justice system is the fact that my uncle divorced her because (and her therapist testified) she was threatening to kill him in her therapy sessions. How was that not a red flag for the system that HMM maybe these kids should not automatically go to her? there is no common sense any more.

  6. #66
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Sorry but how could your uncle have so many kids with this person?
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  7. #67
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Sorry but how could your uncle have so many kids with this person?
    Because he's a pushover and ultra religious.

  8. #68
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    He didn't fight because custody automatically goes to the mother in our state, unless you can prove drug use or danger to the children. ...

    The problem I have with the justice system is the fact that my uncle divorced her because (and her therapist testified) she was threatening to kill him in her therapy sessions. How was that not a red flag for the system that HMM maybe these kids should not automatically go to her? there is no common sense any more.
    Fucking tragic on all sides. Failure of the state. It seems like in this case it would have been easy to at least insinuate that the ex-wife was a danger to her children. However, when one thing is weak something else needs to pick up the slack, the less the state does its job (or vice versa) the less/more an able bodied private citizen needs to do. That's why there's that line "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore". And why there are 'father rights' interest groups that deal specifically with custody and 'fit parenting' issues. I think in this situation your uncle had already helped write a sad tale and divorce and gaining legal sole custody would not stop the cycle of dysfunction unless something fundamentally changed about him and how he parents.

    What is his relationship with his kids now? Or what is the rest of the family's relationship? Hopefully if the kids go to college they can start the road to therapy (it's generally free for college students on campus). Just from hearing your story, I wouldn't necessarily say the daughter may have her mother's disease. Disturbed parents treat their children very differently, sometimes based on gender and the daughter may just have mimicked her mom to survive. Considering she probably felt abandoned by adult figures and knows she's stuck in this situation, short of running away it probably seemed like her only recourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Because he's a pushover and ultra religious.
    I don't want to seem like I'm raking your uncle over the coals since you opened up and shared this story with us. But wow.

    I think for the OP and for everyone else a story like this is a very sobering reminder that 1) dysfunction depends on ENABLERS to survive and 2) an individuals dysfunction becomes a family's dysfunction and 3) when minors or other dependents are involved you have a greater responsibility for their safety and well being than your own. Because they cannot protect nor advocate for themselves. I think that's what I can't get over about your uncle's story, though I can intellectually understand how factors like the social climate and stigma around mental illness 20 years and a deeply religious upbringing etc played a part. It was still a failure on his part.

    It's also interesting how dysfunctional people, even before they completely reveal their dysfunction so often pick enablers and vice versa. It's like they have antennae for each other.

    To move it back to the OP if you think you are close to someone with borderline or any other mental illness and it has not been officially diagnosed, I would say early diagnosis and intervention is the key. Same with living with an alcoholic or drug user. It's so easy to ignore and live with obvious dysfunction and make excuses. In fact, that is usually what happens. It is very rare that someone with the resources (I guess that's debatable and also a loaded description) actually steps up, names the problem and addresses it, let alone does something about it or forces the authorities or others who are better equipped to do something about it. If it's just you that you have to look out for, you can just abandon ship. However, once family or a social network or a sense of obligation is involved it gets more involved.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  9. #69
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    This is just a question about BPD, if anyone knows:

    Is one of the signs/symptoms a major/heightened/abnormal sensitivity to sounds and touch? I know that this can go along with depression (in some cases anyway, and I think I read that it was particularly common in teenagers with depression) but am not sure about BPD.

    My friend is always going on about how, when she's on the bus, people were "brushing up against her" and "chewing so loudly that I wanted to punch them" and things like this. (It tends to be along the lines of, it was ultra-annoying and she wanted to lash out at them. Don't think she ever actually has - it wouldn't be too safe in a city like this.)

    I mean, it really really seems to bother her. I'm not ultra-sensitive to things like touch/sound/smell myself so probably I can't relate, but obviously I have many different friends with different levels of sensitivity, and the way she talks about this it just sounds really strange. There also tends to be an assumption or a perception that they are deliberately doing these things to annoy and drive her crazy. Which again could be more depression-related self-centeredness, I suppose.

    Meh, the more I think about this, although she is doing better in recent months, unfortunately I still think she fits a lot of these criteria or is leaning in that direction. I'm thankful that I've put more space between us, and frankly it's still often overwhelming and stressful.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post

    Is one of the signs/symptoms a major/heightened/abnormal sensitivity to sounds and touch? I know that this can go along with depression (in some cases anyway, and I think I read that it was particularly common in teenagers with depression) but am not sure about BPD.
    I haven't heard of it as being a direct sign of bpd, but it can be related, I'm sure. Many people with bpd also suffer with depression. (I did, although my depression was more zombie-like in nature).

    "Lastly, please keep in mind that BPD is generally found to be co-morbid with at least one other disorder and that co-morbid disorder may also present symptoms which add to or exacerbate the presentation of the Borderline symptoms."

    If you want a good place to read more on bpd and recovery, the best website I have found is: http://www.bpdrecovery.com/HomePage The owner of the site is very knowledgeable and has her head together, albeit a bit narcissistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Meh, the more I think about this, although she is doing better in recent months, unfortunately I still think she fits a lot of these criteria or is leaning in that direction. I'm thankful that I've put more space between us, and frankly it's still often overwhelming and stressful.
    It can be for most people. Take care.
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