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Socionics and hidden agendas

Poser

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I found this recently and couldn't find it discussed here.

Every person has a hidden agenda. This agenda often governs one's intentions and behaviour. People are often unaware of its origin, but can always feel its significance. Some people are more affected by it than other people. Every type requires an optimal condition in which it can function properly. If such condition does not exist, a person will normally attempt to create it. However, due to the nature of the hidden agenda, if and when the optimal condition is reached, the person will occasionally put themselves in a situation where the stability of this condition is threatened.

There are eight such agendas/optimal conditions:


ENTp, ESTp => to be loved
INTj, INFj => to be healthy
ESFj, ESTj => to be perfect
ISFp, INFp => to understand
ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy
ISTj, ISFj => to believe
ESFp, ENFp => to know
INTp, ISTp => to love
I know socionics is a little bit different than MBTI but I would have to say of the types that I know, it is pretty much spot on. What say you?

Type and the hidden agenda
 

ygolo

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Interesting...
I identify with all the hidden agendas listed, and I don't think I hide those agendas all that well either.
 

Poser

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Interesting...
I identify with all the hidden agendas listed, and I don't think I hide those agendas all that well either.

Yeah, not like any of them are negative.
 

Colors

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They are mostly fairly vague and universal, but without looking at the types:

Most true: to understand (ISFp, INFp), to be loved (ENTp, ESTp), to know (ESFp, ENFp)
Moderately true: to love (INTp, ISTp), to be healthy (INTj, INFj)
Occasionally true: to be perfect (ESFj, ESTj), to be wealthy (ENFj, ENTj)
Huh?: to believe (ISTj, ISFj)

Don't seem particularly accurate/ spot on to anyone I know (but of course these goals are fairly broad, and most people have more than one and not desperate for only one, which would make the description spot on), but perhaps I don't know enough about socionics to judge.
 

matmos

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They are mostly fairly vague and universal...Don't seem particularly accurate/ spot on to anyone I know (but of course these goals are fairly broad...
An example of the Forer Effect [www.skepdic.com/forer.html] perhaps?

I've found these hidden agendas accurate, for some reason. I don't know why. I'd love someone to disprove them.
 

snegledmaca

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In socionics terms these can be rewritten as this:

ENTp, ESTp => to be loved => a subconscious need for Fe
INTj, INFj => to be healthy => a subconscious need for Si
ESFj, ESTj => to be perfect => a subconscious need for Ne
ISFp, INFp => to understand => a subconscious need for Ti
ENFj, ENTj => to be wealthy => a subconscious need for Se
ISTj, ISFj => to believe => a subconscious need for Ni
ESFp, ENFp => to know => a subconscious need for Te
INTp, ISTp => to love => a subconscious need for Fi

Here is some more information on this:
Sergei Ganin - Wikisocion

Personally I've come think of them as unnecessary.
 

Poser

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Personally I've come think of them as unnecessary.

Thanks for the information! That is really cool to tie that with functions but how did you come up with those?
1) how did you come up with for example "to be wealthy => a subconscious need for Se"
2) how are the mobilizing functions (hidden agendas) related to type and the other functions?

Also, when you said you have come to think of them as unnecessary, how so?
 

snegledmaca

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Thanks for the information! That is really cool to tie that with functions but how did you come up with those?
1) how did you come up with for example "to be wealthy => a subconscious need for Se"
2) how are the mobilizing functions (hidden agendas) related to type and the other functions?

Also, when you said you have come to think of them as unnecessary, how so?

Well I did not come up with anything. Se is the mobilizing function for EIE-s (ENFj) and LIE-s (ENTj) according to the model A. Sergei Ganin interprets manifestation of ones mobilizing function in terms of the concept of the hidden agenda fixation.

Regarding my stance on it, I agree with the concept of the existence of such agendas, but I don't think that aspect of ones personality is relevant to the level he seems to be implying. In normal individuals that is. I'd say when such clear agendas, clear enough to be picked up on by others, are present a person has a problem.

Now, why each motivation is attributed to each function, that's a little more complicated. To take your example, why would a need for Se be associated with a need to be wealthy.

In socionics Se is the element that deals with object volatility. You can learn more about how socionics treats Se, and other elements, here (For Se look for the little black circle):

Notes on "The Socion, or Socionics Basics" -- pg. 2
Information element - Wikisocion
Notes on "The Semantics of the Information Elements"

Basically because Se deals with objects, the concrete reality, it deals with the aspects of territory and possession. The types EIE (ENFj) and LIE (ENTj) wish to have Se themselves and this manifest in a need for possession and territory.

If you would like I could make an explanation for each of the agendas.

And why this is so is in the model A, you can find information about it here:

Model A - Wikisocion
The Socionist: The Psyche and Reality: Augusta's Understanding
The Socionist: Model A
Blocks of socionic model of psyche
Socionic Model of the Psyche

Also you might find this interesting, it's a description of "the pathetic hidden agenda", or, the not so positive example of the hidden agenda fixation:

The pathetic hidden agenda - The16types.info

ENTp, ESTp : behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

INFp, ISFp : unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

INTp, ISTp : unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

ESFp, ENFp : behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

ISTj, ISFj : unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

ENTj, ENFj : behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

INTj, INFj : showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

ESTj, ESFj : behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.
 

mortabunt

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The INTP agenda is correct. Knowledge though is our main focus. Love is a secondary objective.
 

Sentura

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would anyone be surprised if i told i discovered the subconscious function for ambition by myself before reading about this in the first place?

i don't think this version is correct, however. it seems to be focused on end goals that can be attained to some degree, whereas the ambition i discovered creates a direction for you, not a limit.
 

Jeffster

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To understand what?
 

Sentura

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how everything works; what makes everything tick. a good example of the mindset would be manifested in sylar from the heroes series.
 

Jeffster

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how everything works; what makes everything tick. a good example of the mindset would be manifested in sylar from the heroes series.

I don't care about that.

And furthermore, I have no hidden agenda.
 

Shelovesyoumaybe

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how everything works; what makes everything tick. a good example of the mindset would be manifested in sylar from the heroes series.

I think that's quite accurate. But, I don't think that it's my "hidden" agenda. Pretty much everyone who knows me will tell you that I'm ridiculously curious and want to know the deep meaning of everything.
 

527468

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Can't you see that it is based on the structure of the socionics 6th function, yet Sergei Gannon vaguely attributes these to separate personality types? This guy seriously has no say in how I see socionics. I don't see the 6th function as his version of hidden agenda. All the guy is trying to do is create a new definition for the mobilizing function. I like the mobilizing function how it is. That whole term hidden agenda is vagueness swallowed and shit out.

The main idea of the mobilizing function is in hope that your dual type will be original with it or transform it into something wacky and creative (since it's their creative function, duh.) If no one can see this just by looking at the structure of the elements, then sure. Go ahead and trust some noob like Sergei Gannon to explain it to you. Hidden agenda might fit the sound of this function, but when you read his explanation behind it, you see that he takes the wrong approach, and it makes you want to eat his shit just so people won't have to stare at it. You'd do it at all personal cost. Of course now I'm just fantasizing about eating shit again, but you get my point.

I'd actually be one to assume another use for the mobilizing function, that one wouldn't have to call it just the mobilizing function, but not in this sense.
 

Luigi

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To believe? What?
Can somebody explain that?
 

skimpit

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I found this recently and couldn't find it discussed here.

I know socionics is a little bit different than MBTI but I would have to say of the types that I know, it is pretty much spot on. What say you?

Type and the hidden agenda

Aight, bro, it goes like this. In MBTI we've got functions that go like this:

(We'll use the ISTP as an example): Ti-Se-Ni-Fe-Te-Si-Ne-Fi
So technically, the ISTP is a reverse ESTJ or a mirror ESTJ. Its functions mirror this type exactly except they're backwards. This would be the function order if you used all eight cognitive functions to type a person.

So Fi is last and the most foreign to the user. Therefore it is buried in the subconscious and unable to be used. That doesn't mean it can't be used, just that it isn't used. You could say the second you reach the dividing mark between Fe and Te (in the diagram above) the functions become steeped in the unconscious. (No, subconscious and unconscious are not interchangeable terms.)

You could think of these functions as the background tasks on the computer. The things that run in the background without you ever checking them. They run regardless if you want them to or not. Whereas the main four you have allow you to dissect and use them in a conscious way (deliberately, i.e.). You could also think of it like an iceberg if you like. The main four functions make up the top of the iceberg, and the rest make up the bottom.

So to identify what their hidden agendas are, you just have to look at their last function. Their very last function. They're called hidden either because they're buried in the unconscious or because you don't know about them (as in, you won't acknowledge them in your conscious). They're not dangerous or evil. They're just not fulfilled yet.

This by [MENTION=35]snegledmaca[/MENTION] is a good explanation:
ENTp, ESTp : behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

INFp, ISFp : unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

INTp, ISTp : unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

ESFp, ENFp : behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

ISTj, ISFj : unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

ENTj, ENFj : behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

INTj, INFj : showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

ESTj, ESFj : behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.

Let's go with INFJ. ENFPs are the opposite of this type. Si is their inferior. So therefore, an INFJs eighth function would be Si. Theoretically, of course. Taking care of your health is a classic example of using Si. Inferior Si is awful - if you don't know how to use it correctly, you could end up overestimating a lot of things.

The best thing to do is memorize charts like this:

ISFJ - Si-Fe-Ti-Ne > Se-Fi-Te-Ni
OR Ne-Ti-Fe-Si > Ni-Te-Fi-Se

This shows you how ISFJs are duals of INTJs. (And by duals I mean opposites, you know.) All you have to do is reverse the functions.

You could also think of the eighth function as a type of animus. Whereas Jung or other theorists would call inf Ne in an ISFJ the animus since it is the lowest function and therefore the driving function of the first, Ni would be the super-animus since it's the very last and completely reverse of the aforementioned animus. Sort of like what an ISFJ might lack. Ne, and especially inferior, makes you paranoid about the future because you visualize all the different outcomes and can't pick one. Ni would calm that down. It would make you pick one. Even if it was wrong, it would still be one as opposed to like a hundred and one.

What you posted about the descriptions is right, it's just very general. You just have to know how the functions operate in order to get it. For instance, let's take ISFJs and INFJs from your description.

to understand

Ni would make an ISFJ understand deeply, whereas Ne for an INFJ would make them understand in-depth. They are two different things. I've heard Intuition described as a pool of water, and INFJs search deeply, diving deeper and deeper until they find the answer. An ISFJ or Ne dom would search the surface of the water, going around and around in circles until they explored more or even all of the pool. Ne would give INFJs context. Understanding is worth nothing if it's floating out there in the void. Ni would give ISFJs something to stick to. A place to apply their understanding to - a purpose.

You've gotta kinda take these metaphorically.

As for one more example:

ESTJs and ENTJs and
to be loved

This is just Fe and Fi. Fe wants to be loved. That is the definition of Fe. Fi users love themselves. They understand themselves. They are comfortable with themselves. Fe projects an atmosphere of warmth that's kind of like a radio tower - if you love, you will get love back. It's not that Fi users can't love, it's just that they don't love outwardly. It's like this, really. Fi users are selfish in that they can be inconsiderate of themselves. They work hard, almost into the ground. Fe users work to serve other people. If there's no people to serve, why should they work? That kind of thing.

tl;dr we all want what we can't have.
 

Dyslexxie

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Interesting theory and I can see how some of it makes sense, although all of us probably have a varying degree of most of those needs. And I don't really think nature is as big of a determinant in what we identify as 'needs' for ourselves as much as is what we've been taught via our parents and family and the fears they've instilled in us.
 

erg

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These descriptions are based on the activation function (also called HA or "hidden agenda") of each type. The HA is something you are somewhat proficient in, but would like to be better at. Typically, one can use their HA at key moments as well (or better) than the ones that have it in the ego (main functions), but it is risky to do so because when you engage in it, you are disregarding your PoLR. It's like a secret weapon, or double-edged sword that must not be overused. As per model B I would describe them as follows:

EII - LIE ---> To be healthy and powerful.
LII - EIE ---> To feel pleasure and be in control.
SLI - ILE ---> To love.
LSE - ESI ---> To feel one with god.
SLE - ILI ---> To be loved.
ESE - LSI ---> To know.
IEE - SEI ---> To be wealthy.
SEE - IEI ---> To understand.
 
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