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  1. #51
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This is only possible if you believe that emotional states are functions of a conscious belief system. From what I've observed, it seems more accurate to say a person's conscious belief system is largely a function of their emotional states.

    As I kinda said earlier in the thread, those who are open to feeling shame are more susceptible to cognitive dissonance, which increases their rate of change of beliefs. This is a good trait for humans to have, at least from the perspective of group dynamics, because it allows people to learn from each other and act as a larger unit with similar goals.
    clearly this is at least somewhat related to Fe/Fi
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  2. #52
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    clearly this is at least somewhat related to Fe/Fi
    howso?

  3. #53
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    howso?
    my emotions are derived from
    - the way I view myself
    - my beliefs
    - how close I am in accordance with those believes
    - how comfortable I am
    - how mentally stimulated I am

    ...that's about it
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  4. #54
    morose bourgeoisie
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    'F' does not equal emotion. It's a 'cognitive process', if you believe Jung/typology.

  5. #55
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    'F' does not equal emotion. It's a 'cognitive process', if you believe Jung/typology.
    I don't remember saying it did. I am an ENFP after all, and I'm not very emotional
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    i can see how shame and guilt could potentially be a fe/fi cognition

    shame is a violation of cultural or social values (more external)
    guilt feelings arise when one violates their internal values

    atleast this is according to Ruth Benedict (cultural anthropologist)

    Some might feel like shame shouldn't exist, but it doesn't really matter because it does exist, frequently within the human condition. It's really no different than saying sadness, anxiety, irritability, guilt or any other more negative emotion shouldn't exist. In which case, we might want to look at how some of these more negative feelings can bring forth positive creation, growth, or if they have their very own inherent value.

    Anyhow, I think that what you are getting at Elfboy, is that people should understand that they can avoid darker feelings by changing their perception and judgement of external standards and where they fall into that. I have thought alot about this too, and found it helpful for me many times.. but the fact remains that we are very connected species and some external standards are bound to weigh on our conscience.

    Do you think someone that molests children, and finds that act perfectly in alignment with internal values, should be ashamed? I realize this is an extreme example, but I am curious.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #57
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my emotions are derived from
    - the way I view myself
    - my beliefs
    - how close I am in accordance with those believes
    - how comfortable I am
    - how mentally stimulated I am

    ...that's about it
    I'm not sure I'm following. I can't really find any logical content in your post that contradicts my statement besides "my emotions are derived from ... my beliefs", which isn't reasoning against beliefs being dependent on emotions, it's just the opposite statement.

    I don't really understand the point you're making about Fe vs. Fi either -- are you saying your emotions are representative of Fi emotions and Fe emotions would be dependent on different factors? If so, which factors are you referring to?

    Also, aren't a lot of the factors you listed (how comfortable, how stimulated, etc.) functions of the environment?

  8. #58
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm not sure I'm following. I can't really find any logical content in your post that contradicts my statement besides "my emotions are derived from ... my beliefs", which isn't reasoning against beliefs being dependent on emotions, it's just the opposite statement.

    I don't really understand the point you're making about Fe vs. Fi either -- are you saying your emotions are representative of Fi emotions and Fe emotions would be dependent on different factors? If so, which factors are you referring to?

    Also, aren't a lot of the factors you listed (how comfortable, how stimulated, etc.) functions of the environment?
    - some of them are, some of them are completely internal.
    - I don't deny that emotions and linked with beliefs, I just think that the cause and effect are switched for Fe and Fi
    Fe: emotions (usually) effect beliefs
    Fi: beliefs (usually) effect emotions
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  9. #59
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - some of them are, some of them are completely internal.
    - I don't deny that emotions and linked with beliefs, I just think that the cause and effect are switched for Fe and Fi
    Fe: emotions (usually) effect beliefs
    Fi: beliefs (usually) effect emotions
    I think it's a bit more complicated than that. While it's true that Fi users seem to be more in touch with their emotions, the direction of causality could still be explained in terms of emotions causing beliefs. Most of the stuff going on in the brain is far below the level of consciousness -- we tell ourselves that our conscious mind controls what's happening under the surface but numerous studies suggest otherwise. I see consciousness as a frantic narrative-creating machine, constantly reducing the multidimensional phenomena it's exposed to into neat little one or two dimensional frameworks. Conscious beliefs seem very high up in the hierarchy of brain function.

  10. #60
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I think it's a bit more complicated than that. While it's true that Fi users seem to be more in touch with their emotions, the direction of causality could still be explained in terms of emotions causing beliefs. Most of the stuff going on in the brain is far below the level of consciousness -- we tell ourselves that our conscious mind controls what's happening under the surface but numerous studies suggest otherwise. I see consciousness as a frantic narrative-creating machine, constantly reducing the multidimensional phenomena it's exposed to into neat little one or two dimensional frameworks. Conscious beliefs seem very high up in the hierarchy of brain function.
    according to Jung, Fi is the function with the closest connection to the subconscious
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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