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  1. #41
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Shame is a useless waste of emotion. If actions were so negative, remorse, restitution and self-forgiveness are better uses of time and energy.
    my thoughts exactly
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  2. #42
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Shame is a useless waste of emotion. If actions were so negative, remorse, restitution and self-forgiveness are better uses of time and energy.
    So shame is a choice? Is that what you're saying?

  3. #43
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    So shame is a choice? Is that what you're saying?
    yes. it's not a direct choice (ie you can't just say "I'm not supposed to feel ashamed, so I'm going to stop") but shame is something that can be eliminated. shame is called by a lack of self acceptance. "the past is in the past, all I can do is learn from it and move on. I don't have to keep beating myself up over it. I love myself"
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  4. #44
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I've heard of people that never experience shame. I think they're called sociopaths.
    are you advocating that people go around feeling like this every time they make a mistake?
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    are you advocating that people go around feeling like this every time they make a mistake?
    [irrelevant video]
    I'm advocating nothing. I'm stating that people that never experience shame are either 1) lying, or 2) sociopaths.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #46
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    So shame is a choice? Is that what you're saying?
    Most often, yes. People choose their actions where emotions aren't an excuse. If your values deem an act as being shameful, why would you do it in the first place?

    Also, if you've done something that inadvertently hurt someone, if it bothers you enough, provide restitution and forgive yourself, whether the other party is willing or not to accept restitution. But if you were born a particular way [insert something not by choice such as race, shortness, gender, something you or others don't perceive as being positive], there's absolutely no reason to be ashamed.

  7. #47
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I don't get it, why do people feel ashamed of themselves, hate themselves or feel like they somehow need to do something to validate their existence? what is the psychological root of shame and feelings of worthlessness? they don't make any sense to me.
    It's really based on upbringing by parents and all the external factors of the level of hardships in life.


    I know this Thai girl and she got raped by her brother while they study abroad in Canada. She kept this to herself for many years and I was stunned once she confined this to me, and a few close-friends. We all urged her to either report to police or confess this to her parents, which she chose the latter.

    She ended up getting having her mother screamed at her for fabricating stories for attention and her being a punching bag by her father's fist-punch. She eventually ended up being a lesbian and cutting all of her ties out from her life.

    At this point I thought and hoped she would live a happier life, even though she started out badly with all these traumas. Unfortunately, just a few years ago, I've heard from other friends that she eventually became a very pesivemistic person who loathe her life a great deal to a point where her lesbian lovers all dumped her. Finally she ended her life by becoming excessive drug users and got OD.

    Now I know there are many people who might had similar experience or even harsher experience than her who managed to survive.

    But would you blame her taking her life for granted by wasting it? I don't think I would.

  8. #48
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    yes. it's not a direct choice (ie you can't just say "I'm not supposed to feel ashamed, so I'm going to stop") but shame is something that can be eliminated. shame is called by a lack of self acceptance. "the past is in the past, all I can do is learn from it and move on. I don't have to keep beating myself up over it. I love myself"
    So one should just pull themselves up by the boot straps and move on?
    I have no idea what an 'indirect' choice would be.
    In my experience it doesn't work like that. If it were so simple, there would be no depression, eating disorders, addiction, etc. What you have done is reformulate that old saw that blames the victim.

  9. #49
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    So one should just pull themselves up by the boot straps and move on?
    I have no idea what an 'indirect' choice would be.
    In my experience it doesn't work like that. If it were so simple, there would be no depression, eating disorders, addiction, etc. What you have done is reformulate that old saw that blames the victim.
    it isn't simple, but it can be done. shame is caused by one's belief system, how one perceives one's self, how one value's one's self. I believe that I am inherently valuable as a human being and as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights, even if I mess up, I have nothing to be ashamed of. if you internalize similar beliefs to this, try to live by what you think is right, forgive yourself for making mistakes and truly accept yourself, shame will disappear over time. this doesn't happen over night, it's something one needs to introspect on and slowly internalize.
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  10. #50
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    it isn't simple, but it can be done. shame is caused by one's belief system, how one perceives one's self, how one value's one's self. I believe that I am inherently valuable as a human being and as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights, even if I mess up, I have nothing to be ashamed of. if you internalize similar beliefs to this, try to live by what you think is right, forgive yourself for making mistakes and truly accept yourself, shame will disappear over time. this doesn't happen over night, it's something one needs to introspect on and slowly internalize.
    This is only possible if you believe that emotional states are functions of a conscious belief system. From what I've observed, it seems more accurate to say a person's conscious belief system is largely a function of their emotional states.

    As I kinda said earlier in the thread, those who are open to feeling shame are more susceptible to cognitive dissonance, which increases their rate of change of beliefs. This is a good trait for humans to have, at least from the perspective of group dynamics, because it allows people to learn from each other and act as a larger unit with similar goals.

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