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Does mbti take away the idea of free will?

chickpea

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it can, but i don't think it has to. it should be used as a tool to help understand people, it shouldn't be the only way you know to understand people. it gets treated like a religion sometimes to a ridiculous extent, there's no possible way you can fully capture what a person is like with a combination of letters and numbers. and behavior isn't always going to align perfectly with someone's type either.
 

JAVO

.
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The theories predict rather than impose. An accurate prediction isn't a predestination.

People take away their own free will when they forget that the theories talk about preferences rather than innate characteristics. Then, their type becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy which does actually change their behavior to align more with their type. There are plenty of perfect specimens exemplifying this over at INTP Central. I fight this nonconscious tendency to mold myself to the paradigm too. Our desire to understand ourselves makes us comfortable with it because it is understandable and predictable. But, that's an artificial and limited understanding.
 

Matt_s

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Part of my desire to start this thread stemmed from the feeling of as I get more in depth with JCF and enneagram and MBTI and other things... the less I feel unique and special and the more like I am simply running a group of programs.

This sounds horribly emo and I don't mean it to be. I guess it just feels like someone has harshed my mellow by telling me that my INFPiety is caused by midichlorines.

JCF? Google ain't helping unless you're part of the Jamaican Constabulary Force. If so, please change your location to "right near da beach."

I don't think there's anything horribly emo about wanting to feel like a snowflake (type 4 by chance?:devil:). I think a lot of people give up on it a little too quickly. For me it comes down to, if I'm not special and unique simply by virtue of my existence, what can I create that is special to keep these feelings of non-snowflakeness at bay? Sure, there's nothing new under the sun, but there's a lot that's new to me.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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JCF? Google ain't helping unless you're part of the Jamaican Constabulary Force. If so, please change your location to "right near da beach."

I don't think there's anything horribly emo about wanting to feel like a snowflake (type 4 by chance?:devil:). I think a lot of people give up on it a little too quickly. For me it comes down to, if I'm not special and unique simply by virtue of my existence, what can I create that is special to keep these feelings of non-snowflakeness at bay? Sure, there's nothing new under the sun, but there's a lot that's new to me.

close...... jungian cognitive functions.

the rest of what you say is so amazing and true. i appreciate the input. :) (also, yes I am a 4 but I am having to prove my INFP 4ness against unfair accusations of ENFP 7dom :shock:)
 

Little Linguist

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Physics takes away the idea of free will

Damn quantum mechanics. I had no choice – the quanta made me do it! And if it wasn't that, it was the ExFP-ness, which pretty much is as random as quanta anyway.
 

CrystalViolet

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Quantum mechanics explains every thing. That and it's a great ruse to use when you don't want to answer a question. Any way technically, you done every permutation there is according to QM, it's other people's perceptions and yours that lock you in. ( I may have miss understood that point.) For some weird reason I find that comforting, because in some alternative realty I'm not as big a screw up:smile:
I personally find that cool.
There a certain freedom in getting to know your innate nature. You become aware of gifts otherwise unappreciated as well as your negative tendencies. I don't think it negates free will persay but it does give you the tools to understand some of your own behaviors, and maybe short circuit routine responses. In some ways, it actually amps up the free will aspect. No longer are you unaware of some those subcounscious responses.
 

Elfboy

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I find that the more I learn about JCF, enneagram, mbti, etc... The more easily I can parse why I make the decisions I do, or react the way I do. At times it feels like it's less about what I want to do and more about "well, I'm a Fi-Dom, so of course I will do x."

Does this make sense? I'm hoping for discussion from others with their own thoughts and experiences about themselves.

I think free will exists. how else would you get Fi doms who end up like Donald Trump (yes, Donald Trump is an ISFP)
 

Elfboy

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it can, but i don't think it has to. it should be used as a tool to help understand people, it shouldn't be the only way you know to understand people. it gets treated like a religion sometimes to a ridiculous extent, there's no possible way you can fully capture what a person is like with a combination of letters and numbers. and behavior isn't always going to align perfectly with someone's type either.

exactly. MBTI is only the brains tool cabinet. what you do with it is up to you
 

Giggly

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I think free will exists. how else would you get Fi doms who end up like Donald Trump (yes, Donald Trump is an ISFP)

Then you have to admit that SJs have free will too. ;)
 

sculpting

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I find that the more I learn about JCF, enneagram, mbti, etc... The more easily I can parse why I make the decisions I do, or react the way I do. At times it feels like it's less about what I want to do and more about "well, I'm a Fi-Dom, so of course I will do x."

Does this make sense? I'm hoping for discussion from others with their own thoughts and experiences about themselves.

It doesnt remove free will but it does shape visceral responses. However if we receive extrnal pressure to modify or change those visceral repsonses, we develop alternate patterns of behavior that may not be "typical" of our type.

The funniest part is to identify your innate, visceral response, then understand how you project it onto others-it is like unweaving a puzzle. As I unweave each peice, it then allows a rebuilding of Fi rules that match others needs, not simply my projections of their needs. (or something funny like that :) )
 

EJCC

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To those who weren't lazy: I commend you for helping make this forum a more interesting, less sensitive place.
:( ???

I don't know what this means! Did I do something wrong??
 

Habba

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ISTJ/1w9/SiTe are just generalizations of people who are some what similar to me. I'm not a generalization of these types.

+ there's no free will to begin with. Our inability to perceive the process of decision making is just creating this illusion of free will. In reality, we are merely hand puppets of the great Ygg'rathlin.
 

Elfboy

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What type is he? (I don't know much about him)

I don't know, but from the documentaries of him I've watched he seems like a clear SJ.
 

OrangeAppled

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I would say the will is constructed by the mind, and within that construction, it is free. This is not a true constraint, IMO, because without a construction it would not exist. That's like saying our bodies prevent us from being free because they don't fly (or some other physical impossibility) - they are limited. However, without them, we'd have no movement at all; we need them simply to exist. So free will is relative to the capacity of the mind, and that may seem like a constraint if you want to spin it that way, but I think it's ignoring that we NEED constraints for sheer existence. To me, it's making "free" mean something it doesn't. There is no external constraint after all....the constraint is from the individual's own nature.
 

Little_Sticks

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I find that the more I learn about JCF, enneagram, mbti, etc... The more easily I can parse why I make the decisions I do, or react the way I do. At times it feels like it's less about what I want to do and more about "well, I'm a Fi-Dom, so of course I will do x."

Does this make sense? I'm hoping for discussion from others with their own thoughts and experiences about themselves.

Maybe you just use it as a general behavioral tool and find your behavior doesn't change much? That would make it consistent for you and might give you the illusion of losing free will.

These systems all have the same underlining problem of outlining motivations. I guess the way I see it, JCF uses the functions to represent the conscious and unconscious, MBTI the behavior of having a functional role, enneagram more about instincts. But either way you slice it, anything that tries to explain behavior has to talk about motivations in some way or else what is there to talk about?

This is the problem some people have with Jung's types because the unconscious functions don't really suggest an archetype, but motivations. So the big thing is that the more you experience life and become aware of your motivations, you more you understand and can influence them to change. This is free will and it's always happening, even if you use typology to try to explain everything, life will still happen, and you might change your type, especially experiencing trauma and the resulting neurosis that causes you to lose the faith you once had in something, a rule, a security, system of moral thought, or any such thing. This is probably what individuation is likely about - through understanding all these motivations and the control you have over them you get a clearer picture of your nature. Maybe that's why Jung thought neurosis was a blessing because even though it hurts you, if you come out of it and learn from it, you have a much better idea of the person you are (the archetype that makes you up and no one else shares) behind the more superficially conditioned/mechanical forms of behavior we create to deal with the world. More precisely, we are what we do, as much as how we feel and rationalize to do them.

It's hard to explain probably because it's an irrational idea, but I suppose it has to be to explain the irrational. If you think it takes away free will, I'd suppose you were taking this stuff too literally.
 

Lily flower

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I do think there is some degree of being "forced" to be a certain way. I know that if I chose which letters to be, they would certainly be different from the ones I have now. A lot of my life has been attempting to become more E and some more S, T and P would be helpful, as well.

But I think the whole point of free will is really more a choice of being/doing good versus evil, and I don't think that is as much a type issue, since you can have a good or evil person of any type.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I don't think it takes away the 'idea' of free will so much as it gives a person permission to behave in some stereotypical, MBTI way.

I see JCF as preferences nature has given us to sense, intuit, think, and feel.

But it is nurture, or environment, which molds our behaviors. Free will is based in behavior and coerced by things within our environment, like our belief system, our values, our morality; things external to our innate way of being, but concepts which usually become fairly strongly grounded in us as we go through life; free will gets nestled into our ego, and becomes part of who we are, I believe.

If our impulse to free will is weak--if our ego is weak--then free will is susceptible to losing itself within other, coquettishly influential systems, like MBTI, or any other doctrine.
 

wildcat

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You make sense. Overlooking free will on psychological grounds is common, both in the theories that the brain controls the mind and that the mind rules the person who owns it.

Hierarchy of Maslow.

Eyes do not see.
Brain does nor judge.
 
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