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  1. #31
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    To those who weren't lazy: I commend you for helping make this forum a more interesting, less sensitive place.
    ???

    I don't know what this means! Did I do something wrong??
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #32
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    ISTJ/1w9/SiTe are just generalizations of people who are some what similar to me. I'm not a generalization of these types.

    + there's no free will to begin with. Our inability to perceive the process of decision making is just creating this illusion of free will. In reality, we are merely hand puppets of the great Ygg'rathlin.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  3. #33
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Then you have to admit that SJs have free will too.
    of course. just look at Sam Walton (founder of Walmart)
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
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  4. #34
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    of course. just look at Sam Walton (founder of Walmart)
    What type is he? (I don't know much about him)

  5. #35
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    What type is he? (I don't know much about him)
    I don't know, but from the documentaries of him I've watched he seems like a clear SJ.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  6. #36
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I would say the will is constructed by the mind, and within that construction, it is free. This is not a true constraint, IMO, because without a construction it would not exist. That's like saying our bodies prevent us from being free because they don't fly (or some other physical impossibility) - they are limited. However, without them, we'd have no movement at all; we need them simply to exist. So free will is relative to the capacity of the mind, and that may seem like a constraint if you want to spin it that way, but I think it's ignoring that we NEED constraints for sheer existence. To me, it's making "free" mean something it doesn't. There is no external constraint after all....the constraint is from the individual's own nature.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #37
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I find that the more I learn about JCF, enneagram, mbti, etc... The more easily I can parse why I make the decisions I do, or react the way I do. At times it feels like it's less about what I want to do and more about "well, I'm a Fi-Dom, so of course I will do x."

    Does this make sense? I'm hoping for discussion from others with their own thoughts and experiences about themselves.
    Maybe you just use it as a general behavioral tool and find your behavior doesn't change much? That would make it consistent for you and might give you the illusion of losing free will.

    These systems all have the same underlining problem of outlining motivations. I guess the way I see it, JCF uses the functions to represent the conscious and unconscious, MBTI the behavior of having a functional role, enneagram more about instincts. But either way you slice it, anything that tries to explain behavior has to talk about motivations in some way or else what is there to talk about?

    This is the problem some people have with Jung's types because the unconscious functions don't really suggest an archetype, but motivations. So the big thing is that the more you experience life and become aware of your motivations, you more you understand and can influence them to change. This is free will and it's always happening, even if you use typology to try to explain everything, life will still happen, and you might change your type, especially experiencing trauma and the resulting neurosis that causes you to lose the faith you once had in something, a rule, a security, system of moral thought, or any such thing. This is probably what individuation is likely about - through understanding all these motivations and the control you have over them you get a clearer picture of your nature. Maybe that's why Jung thought neurosis was a blessing because even though it hurts you, if you come out of it and learn from it, you have a much better idea of the person you are (the archetype that makes you up and no one else shares) behind the more superficially conditioned/mechanical forms of behavior we create to deal with the world. More precisely, we are what we do, as much as how we feel and rationalize to do them.

    It's hard to explain probably because it's an irrational idea, but I suppose it has to be to explain the irrational. If you think it takes away free will, I'd suppose you were taking this stuff too literally.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    I do think there is some degree of being "forced" to be a certain way. I know that if I chose which letters to be, they would certainly be different from the ones I have now. A lot of my life has been attempting to become more E and some more S, T and P would be helpful, as well.

    But I think the whole point of free will is really more a choice of being/doing good versus evil, and I don't think that is as much a type issue, since you can have a good or evil person of any type.

  9. #39
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I don't think it takes away the 'idea' of free will so much as it gives a person permission to behave in some stereotypical, MBTI way.

    I see JCF as preferences nature has given us to sense, intuit, think, and feel.

    But it is nurture, or environment, which molds our behaviors. Free will is based in behavior and coerced by things within our environment, like our belief system, our values, our morality; things external to our innate way of being, but concepts which usually become fairly strongly grounded in us as we go through life; free will gets nestled into our ego, and becomes part of who we are, I believe.

    If our impulse to free will is weak--if our ego is weak--then free will is susceptible to losing itself within other, coquettishly influential systems, like MBTI, or any other doctrine.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  10. #40
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    You make sense. Overlooking free will on psychological grounds is common, both in the theories that the brain controls the mind and that the mind rules the person who owns it.
    Hierarchy of Maslow.

    Eyes do not see.
    Brain does nor judge.

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