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  1. #21
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I believe there can be, but as to determining it concretely? Like trying to locate the "mind" and not it's supposed organic location, the brain. The authentic self is merely a projection or a shadow. As an NF, I compulsively seek it, but if I were objective about it, where and what exactly am I seeking?
    Agreed that it's not a physical thing. I see what you mean by shadow. I think of authenticity as unadulturated ME. Where is it? It's always here, just hidden. It's nothing something you have to go out and seek because you're not going to find it in a certain profession or with a certain person. Those things can help put you at ease, but they're ultimately only tools to authenticity. Authenticity is like exaggerated honesty. You find it by developing love and acceptance for others and for yourself and being patient with your quest, not by frantically searching. (Not alleging you do this, your highess, but you said "seek.")

    In my opinion, you can't, except through completely personal means. Even if one could determine an "authentic" self, how can you prove it's relevance to 3 dimensional "here and now"? As an NF, I don't have to have the unseen and immaterial explained to me because I tend to accept things on "faith" (i.e. without the need for concrete data), but just for the sake of argument (and you know a good debate turns you on), what's the point of pursuit of the authentic self when it has no address or shape?
    It's true that it's not something with boundaries that you can touch, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps it doesn't exist as a separate entity, but some combination of conditions, much like liberty. Is liberty worth pursuing even though you can't touch it? Sure, why not.

    Fish don't need pants. Would a fish be "inauthentic" in pants?
    Not enough info. I would have to see the fish's facial expression, along with the rest of his wardrobe. Perhaps he's (she's?) wearing pants because she just felt like it one day. In that case, I'd say there's a chance he's (she's??) being very authentic and honest.

    All right, may I ask what tells you that an expression has become distorted? It just feels "wrong" somehow? Also, shame seems to indicate that a person is correlating their actions/attitudes with the general populace and determining the validity/acceptability of such actions/attitudes.
    As far as shame goes -- I'd agree. Shame comes from judging one's self in relation to notions of what's good/successful/proper. Almost fucking worthless.

    I know an expression is distorted when I question whether it's authentic. That questioning, to me, implies that I'm already judging myself and evaluating my own actions as authentic/inauthentic, which links back to self-consciousness and self-distortion. Why? Because they have the same origin: impatient progress. Meaning, my overeager desire to be authentic is the same overeager desire for change that leads me to distort. Mmmm, that's good.

    How Buddhist of you, Richard Gere. *poke*


    How others know Edahn is present: by the constant stream of maundering ramble-ations that proceed from the alleged mouth part of the alleged face of said alleged being.


    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    You prefer the "trip over truth" method, do you?

    You refer to flow. Letting things just happen. I like that way too, but with a little targeted searching thrown in. Idling about while the cosmos hogs the restroom isn't my idea of enlightenment.
    I agree. Searching with patience is a big key, I've found. (From the album Floating Glass Key in the Sky. Just heard the song today and I'm already in .)

  2. #22
    Member suzyk's Avatar
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    what purpose, ultimately, does one's opinion of one's self serve?
    How and what they see themselves as? We may look the same on the outside, but isn't everyone different inside?

    are people inclined to mimic and absorb things in order to form their self-identity?
    Yes. Aren't fashion trends essentially a way of portraying yourself (with clothing)? I do, at any rate.

    do they do it on purpose, or do they suffer from some degree of delusion?
    They do it on purpose. What delusion do you speak of?
    "I can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write faster than anybody who can write better."
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  3. #23
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Edahn: From what you were saying... does it imply that authenticity is merely accepting who we are... that there should be no evaluation of self? From that line of thought... where is the drive for improvement?

  4. #24
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    what other perceive you as (authentic or not) is irrelevant, if we're trying to define authenticity, we should look to what is central to authentic and inauthentic behavior--the reasoning behind the source of the behavior.

    first off, i do not think any behavior is entirely inauthentic or authentic, there is a gradient between the two, marked by the person's "viscosity of self" in any given behavior.

    inauthentic behavior, i would argue, is when people absorb and expel behavior without any thinking. the reasons for doing so are most likely along the lines of wanting to fit in or be accepted, and the assumption is made that such can only be achieved through mimicry. this is the low road--copying others (most likely those respected by the majority) without understanding the reasons behind their actions. in the most severe form of this, the only self-produced behavior is a lack of confidence and a need for acceptance, everything else is simply that behavior in action. blow this up in scale and imagine the results: everyone would be the same.

    entirely authentic behavior is sourced entirely from one's self, that is to say, it is completely original. without taking anything externally, it follows that someone is required to generate their own reasoning in entirety. there is no bluffing and all that results, regardless of whether it may happen to resemble something else or not, is authentic expression of that person's thinking.

    authenticity is merely another example of the root problem to what this thread was originally bringing up--the behavioral tendency to not question one's self. those who question themselves in everything will be forced to either accept that they are incapable of surviving on their own reasoning or... come up with their own.



    people may lack the facility to identify the attractive behavior (real confidence) behind anything, but for the most part i have seen this approached the same way. someone who acts in such a way that resembles nothing must have authentic reasoning and the confidence that their self reasoning is tried-and-true. something that resembles something else points largely to mimicry and thus a lack of confidence in one's own reasoning. so yeah, people may not know why, but they can identify attractive and unattractive behavior, and this is the mechanics behind that, in my opinion.

    with that said, most people are copy cats that go unchecked... artificial confidence builds in this until something occurs that exposes their lack of self driven reasoning and that confidence crumbles. on the flipside, those with an abundance of reason are rarely phased.

  5. #25
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Agree very much with the first line of OP.

    I've heard, and believe that most people are inclined to think they're slightly above average, in any skill. Few would acclaim themselves with high level of skill as it's, unbelievable (especially to themselves, even if it's true), or in fear that they may ultimately embarrass themselves. The same lot would as infrequently admit to being anything less than the next guy on the barbecue rack, for obvious reasons.

    That's not exactly the same as what you said but it works.

    I've actually thought of this before and (sort of) intentionally stopped trying to figure myself out for knowledge of lack of ability. At the same rate, I don't allow anyone else to really try it much 'cause I know they're not going to be able to either.

    That above doesn't count. That's just stuff I've done. Certainly I can remember that.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #26
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    The authentic self is merely a projection or a shadow. As an NF, I compulsively seek it, but if I were objective about it, where and what exactly am I seeking?

    Part I would say is the part of us that existed before we were conditioned by life's experiences, both the good and the bad conditioning we've recieived. Another part is the part of us that can exist beyond the attempted control of our own ego and its needs to shelter us against our flaws or that which we don't like about ourselves.

    The ego can in its proper place be a cheerleader to give us courage to face life's adversity, the problems come when it is treated like the captain of the team and allowed in the driver's seat.

    So the ego has needs to deny our flaws, because it is the cheerleader, the yes man. If we allow it to dictate to us, it encourages us to split ourselves off.

    The way to true self is to integrate the conscious and unconscious parts of ourselves, completing the circle, the process of individuation, of becoming whole once more. We do have to seek it and to accept our shadows/unconscious self. It is the purpose of our lives, to repair the cracked vessels that we all are.

  7. #27
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Agreed that it's not a physical thing. I see what you mean by shadow. I think of authenticity as unadulturated ME. Where is it? It's always here, just hidden. It's nothing something you have to go out and seek because you're not going to find it in a certain profession or with a certain person. Those things can help put you at ease, but they're ultimately only tools to authenticity. Authenticity is like exaggerated honesty. You find it by developing love and acceptance for others and for yourself and being patient with your quest, not by frantically searching. (Not alleging you do this, your highess, but you said "seek.")
    Agreed that the best "you" is inside you (and not sought elsewhere), I think the elsewhere-seeking is meant to contrast more sharply what is you by showing what is not-you, like Mr. Rogers is not-you but you may decide you like cardigan sweaters from seeking out Mr. Rogers and observing how he wears his.

    Exaggerated honesty is a good way of putting it. Your Highness endorses this statement.



    It's true that it's not something with boundaries that you can touch, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps it doesn't exist as a separate entity, but some combination of conditions, much like liberty. Is liberty worth pursuing even though you can't touch it? Sure, why not.
    So are yetis. I like to believe in things I know DON'T exist. That rules out any pesky "reality" problems.



    Not enough info. I would have to see the fish's facial expression, along with the rest of his wardrobe. Perhaps he's (she's?) wearing pants because she just felt like it one day. In that case, I'd say there's a chance he's (she's??) being very authentic and honest.
    You are a ridiculous man.



    I know an expression is distorted when I question whether it's authentic. That questioning, to me, implies that I'm already judging myself and evaluating my own actions as authentic/inauthentic, which links back to self-consciousness and self-distortion. Why? Because they have the same origin: impatient progress. Meaning, my overeager desire to be authentic is the same overeager desire for change that leads me to distort. Mmmm, that's good.
    But by what yardstick do you compare (for judging purposes) this or that thing that seems authentic/inauthentic? How do you determine what a good litmus test is for your authenticity?



    Correction: You are a nasty ridiculous man.


    I agree. Searching with patience is a big key, I've found. (From the album Floating Glass Key in the Sky. Just heard the song today and I'm already in .)
    I'll have to check that out when my dial-up stops messing with everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Edahn: From what you were saying... does it imply that authenticity is merely accepting who we are... that there should be no evaluation of self? From that line of thought... where is the drive for improvement?
    An interesting thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    inauthentic behavior, i would argue, is when people absorb and expel behavior without any thinking.
    Another interesting thought.

    entirely authentic behavior is sourced entirely from one's self, that is to say, it is completely original.
    I simply don't think this is possible, Gray. We aren't born with the ability to speak a language, only the inherent capacity. We have to emulate. It's unavoidable. Perhaps the most authentic behavior is what we emulate that hits closest to our inner desires and reject what does not?


    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Part I would say is the part of us that existed before we were conditioned by life's experiences, both the good and the bad conditioning we've recieived. Another part is the part of us that can exist beyond the attempted control of our own ego and its needs to shelter us against our flaws or that which we don't like about ourselves.

    The ego can in its proper place be a cheerleader to give us courage to face life's adversity, the problems come when it is treated like the captain of the team and allowed in the driver's seat. jmo.
    Very well said indeed, Heart.
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  8. #28
    heart on fire
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    Does modern consumerism, where to love is to "buy", interfere with personal individuation and produce a society that is predetermined to be inauthentic at its core?


    Bernard Stiegler explores this idea:

    The Disaffected Individual in the Process of Psychic and Collective Disindividuation

  9. #29
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Edahn: From what you were saying... does it imply that authenticity is merely accepting who we are... that there should be no evaluation of self? From that line of thought... where is the drive for improvement?
    This is a question I struggle with constantly. I believe that the drive for self-improvement must be soft and caring. A good analogy is helping a friend get over some problem. You don't say YOU MUST CHANGE OR ELSE, and you don't just say EVERYTHING OKAY THE WAY IT IS. You say something like: well, where you are now is nothing to be be embarrassed about, but I believe in your ability to care for yourself and grow.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Agreed that the best "you" is inside you (and not sought elsewhere), I think the elsewhere-seeking is meant to contrast more sharply what is you by showing what is not-you, like Mr. Rogers is not-you but you may decide you like cardigan sweaters from seeking out Mr. Rogers and observing how he wears his.
    I hear what you're saying, but I don't think of that the self is defined that way. I used to think that there was this real me, and every now and then I got hints of who that person was, and that following that trail would lead me to discover that person (and make serious homo/autosexual love to him) but now I think that the trail isn't so much about recreating an "authentic" situation (being a psychologist, being this, wearing that, doing this, etc) as it is exploring a mindset that is comfortable with error (whereas discomfort leads to self-distortion and self-doubt, the antithesis of authenticity).

    So are yetis. I like to believe in things I know DON'T exist. That rules out any pesky "reality" problems.
    That's why you can't join our NT club.



    But by what yardstick do you compare (for judging purposes) this or that thing that seems authentic/inauthentic? How do you determine what a good litmus test is for your authenticity?
    I know when my mind has finally stopped searching and is resting. I suddenly feel in touch with my environment. It happened last week and I was listening to the sounds of traffic play with my ears. It was beautiful and soothing.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I simply don't think this is possible, Gray. We aren't born with the ability to speak a language, only the inherent capacity. We have to emulate. It's unavoidable. Perhaps the most authentic behavior is what we emulate that hits closest to our inner desires and reject what does not?
    already answered that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    first off, i do not think any behavior is entirely inauthentic or authentic, there is a gradient between the two, marked by the person's "viscosity of self" in any given behavior.
    how authentic someone is isn't as important as the desire to be authentic. as you say, nobody can be entirely original, but it seems only a small few care to even try... or at the very least, represent themselves well.

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