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  1. #11
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    This is an interesting article that sort of pertains to the topic...

    "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"

    http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
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  2. #12
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    are people naturally inclined to present themselves as having more substance than they do, or less? i.e., will they take liberties with reality
    As Dana said already. It's human nature to present(mis-present) their best qualities to others. Humans are social creatures... if society indicates "substance" is of importance... In order to fit in, what else can people project but that?

    do they do it on purpose, or do they suffer from some degree of delusion?
    This self-delusion that you speak of happens in both the conscious and unconscious level. If I recall from my psychology class correctly... there are two types of narcissists. The "stable" one who has absolutely no awareness of personal flaws... the unconscious self-delusionist... versus the defensive narcissist who is unconsciously aware of his self-discrepancies. With that said, there's also no reason why people might not deliberately chose to pretend either. As stated above... Society dictates; sheep will follow.


    could this be a symptom of the tendency people have to favor themselves rather than self-applying the same critique given to other things?
    That is the definition of the narcissists is it not? To be overly critical of others... to dismiss outside opinions while elevating the importance of his own. Double standards.

    Although I must say the "narcissism" trait lies on a continuum... The paradoxical "healthy narcissism" apparently does work. Narcissism linking to self confidence. Perception affecting performance which in turn affects outcome. Plenty of psyc experiments out there demonstrating such.

    are people inclined to mimic and absorb things in order to form their self-identity?
    What's the basis for self-identity? You need a starting point... What is mathematics without its axioms? Same deal really... There is no technology without physics, there is no physics without math, there is no math without axioms. Want to develop new technology? You need a foundation in the basics... Sure, you can build it up all from the fundamentals again, but that takes time of which you don't have. How different is that from building your self-identity? Mimicry/absorption gives you a starting point. Human mind makes the intuitive leap. The known foundation might be flawed, but it existed for so long such that the flaws that remained could not have be too critical... why not save yourself some time and utilize it?

    what purpose, ultimately, does one's opinion of one's self serve?
    Perception = subjective reality

    Opinion affects perception; perception affects emotions & reactions (blah! emotion, perception, reaction triangle); reaction affects external response affects outcome; outcome stored in memory affects opinion... repeat cycle.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    I think this is the only well-accepted theory in both clinical and social psych.
    I think you need to study more psych.

    Re: OP, people distort the way the way they perceive themselves and the way other perceive them because they can't bare the truth. Merging these two identities (the false self and the authentic self) is one of the great tests of life.

    P.S. Check out Winnicott. Smart guy.

  4. #14
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Bringing into consideration that all reality to some degree is subjective and impossible to objectively quantify (the constant grappling by science to find a baseline to quantify will never be at an end), I think perception - personal and otherwise - assists our brains' ability to decide whether something/someone means us harm or help, is a good genetic mate (on sight, without interview or test for times past when communication was gleaned strictly through non-verbal signals), or will be competition.

    Is the perceptual part of the cognition located in the primal or "lizard" brain, do you think?

    I like to believe the best of people. That's clearly both a good and entirely fallacious outlook on life. No one has your best interest always. YOU don't even have your best interest always. So perhaps a percentage of the time, I'm believing a lie in anticipation of an outcome that may or may not end well. However, I persist with this perception because it's pretty much hardwired into my brain to want to trust people, herd animal that I am.

    I like to believe (as all NFJs do) that I'm not the demon I sometimes see in the mirror. I perceive that all my intentions or actions have some underlying meritorious root, even if they don't, and that encourages me to continue to seek communion with others in spite of my less-than-altruistic behaviors which have just as much a chance of passing away unnoticed or unacted-upon as they do extroverting and making me look like a jerk (i.e. a flawed human being who wants to eat your pie and take your shoes).
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  5. #15
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I think you need to study more psych.

    Re: OP, people distort the way the way they perceive themselves and the way other perceive them because they can't bare the truth. Merging these two identities (the false self and the authentic self) is one of the great tests of life.

    P.S. Check out Winnicott. Smart guy.
    I have trouble believing that the "authentic" self can exist. By what measure is that self validated as "authentic"? How can a baseline be established in a purely subjective area, unless electrodes are attached to your head to determine what regions of the brain light up when activated under controlled conditions? Even then, it bears no real quantifiable moral implications, only organic ones.

    The best we can do, in my opinion, is gauge ourselves by how well our personal perceptions align with the greater percentage of our "set" and the social mores of our present culture (a standard issue cannibal among the other headhunters is a "good" cannibal/neighbor/etc.)
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  6. #16
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I have trouble believing that the "authentic" self can exist. By what measure is that self validated as "authentic"?
    These are 3 separate issues, seems to me:
    (1) Is there an authentic self?
    (2) How can we determine what is authentic and what isn't, as the subject?
    (3) How can we determine what is authentic and what isn't, as an observer?

    (1) I think there is an authentic self. I would define it as undistorted self-expression. This basically means you're not afraid or ashamed of feeling/being who you are. Thoughts and feelings pour out naturally. This doesn't mean you act on all of them, but that you allow yourself to feel them.
    (2) How do *I* know I'm there? I can feel it. I feel like I have nowhere to go and no one to be and my mind is quiet.
    (3) How do others know I'm there? There's no great way of knowing for sure, but I think you can see it in subtle ways. Body language, spontaneity, speech, smile, rhythm of movements, timing, etc.

  7. #17
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    If there is no authentic self to be sought and to strive for being, then I would prefer to just pack it all in now, there would be no point to going on with this farce called life.

  8. #18
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Add: The worst thing a person can do in their quest for authenticity is look for it, because that defeats the whole purpose, ironically. I think that's the reason authenticity can be so elusive.

  9. #19
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    These are 3 separate issues, seems to me:
    (1) Is there an authentic self?
    I believe there can be, but as to determining it concretely? Like trying to locate the "mind" and not it's supposed organic location, the brain. The authentic self is merely a projection or a shadow. As an NF, I compulsively seek it, but if I were objective about it, where and what exactly am I seeking?


    (2) How can we determine what is authentic and what isn't, as the subject?
    In my opinion, you can't, except through completely personal means. Even if one could determine an "authentic" self, how can you prove it's relevance to 3 dimensional "here and now"? As an NF, I don't have to have the unseen and immaterial explained to me because I tend to accept things on "faith" (i.e. without the need for concrete data), but just for the sake of argument (and you know a good debate turns you on), what's the point of pursuit of the authentic self when it has no address or shape?


    (3) How can we determine what is authentic and what isn't, as an observer?

    Fish don't need pants. Would a fish be "inauthentic" in pants?


    (1) I think there is an authentic self. I would define it as undistorted self-expression. This basically means you're not afraid or ashamed of feeling/being who you are. Thoughts and feelings pour out naturally. This doesn't mean you act on all of them, but that you allow yourself to feel them.
    All right, may I ask what tells you that an expression has become distorted? It just feels "wrong" somehow? Also, shame seems to indicate that a person is correlating their actions/attitudes with the general populace and determining the validity/acceptability of such actions/attitudes.


    (2) How do *I* know I'm there? I can feel it. I feel like I have nowhere to go and no one to be and my mind is quiet.
    How Buddhist of you, Richard Gere. *poke*


    (3) How do others know I'm there? There's no great way of knowing for sure, but I think you can see it in subtle ways. Body language, spontaneity, speech, smile, rhythm of movements, timing, etc.
    How others know Edahn is present: by the constant stream of maundering ramble-ations that proceed from the alleged mouth part of the alleged face of said alleged being.
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  10. #20
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Add: The worst thing a person can do in their quest for authenticity is look for it, because that defeats the whole purpose, ironically. I think that's the reason authenticity can be so elusive.

    You prefer the "trip over truth" method, do you?

    You refer to flow. Letting things just happen. I like that way too, but with a little targeted searching thrown in. Idling about while the cosmos hogs the restroom isn't my idea of enlightenment.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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