Ultimate hoaxer qualities?

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Per Jennifer's post

Yes, maybe we need an "ultimate hoaxer" thread.

I nominate:
* ENTP
* ESFP
* ESTP

as the top three "scammer types" out there.
(At least in terms of motivation, passion, and skill.)

I of course denounce all allegations of being involved in a hoax. More specifically,

-The now-bankrupt business idea I was advocating wasn't a pyramid scheme, it was entirely legit multi-level marketing
-I never promised as much profits as I did
-the motor oil I sold you didn't work because you didn't buy enough of it
-The weight loss pills I marketed *do* work on those who just believe in them
-My perpetual motion machine *does* work, it does for days and days at a time
-The anonymous hint on that sport event WAS from a reliable source
and finally,
-I *did* need your bank account information to process your funds.

No really, I'm the #1 person to warn you about a hoax (like in the examples mentioned), rather than to propagate (or initiate) one. I'm skeptical enough to find the hoaxes, too. But that's just me personally. So, what type is the ultimate hoaxer?

What common qualities might be found from those who initiate hoaxes for monetary gain?

 

[mippus]

I'd say a perfect hoaxer must have a huge amount of functional empathy: the skills to "read" their victims, express understanding, adapt their own behaviour to it and then coldly close the deal.
ENTP's should be excellent at this.

 

[Totenkindly]

-The now-bankrupt business idea I was advocating wasn't a pyramid scheme, it was entirely legit multi-level marketing
-I never promised as much profits as I did
-the motor oil I sold you didn't work because you didn't buy enough of it
-The weight loss pills I marketed *do* work on those who just believe in them
-My perpetual motion machine *does* work, it does for days and days at a time
-The anonymous hint on that sport event WAS from a reliable source
and finally,
-I *did* need your bank account information to process your funds.

BWA HA HA!

It's so real, it's almost... real!!!


... scary.

What common qualities might be found from those who initiate hoaxes for monetary gain?

Note they're all ExxPs.

The ExTPs see the social/commercial system as something that can be exploited. Those who are responsible and wary won't be fooled. Those who are taken in deserve it because they were poor players. These guys are the hustlers.

ESFPs tend to be performers more than taking advantage of people, but they still get very enthusiastic about their products. And they still often have that "If they pay for it, it's a fair trade" mentality.l Our 11-year-old took great pleasure in buying a 25 cent item at a yard sale up the street totally to sell to one his nearby best friend, for $20 (original price). The final sale price was $4 or so... but he doesn't feel at all bad about it. His overriding goal is "how do I get money, to buy the things I want for me?" and he sees those opportunities as situations to fulfill his own desires.

I have found that ENFPs tend to be a little more sensitive and interested in the abstract relationships/maturation with/of others, so they tend to not be so crass as to rip them off. (The NF thing.) Not that they can't, it's just the hustling skill tends to be supplanted by deeper relational concerns.

These are mostly cynical comments about the three types. I also think they honestly can believe in what they are doing, and tend to think that if someone works hard and actually tries, they TOO can do as well. We had an ESFP sell us a sunroom; it was funny to watch him do his routine; he did believe in his product, but there were so many times I specifically poked on the weak points in his presentation, then got a song-and-dance number from him. Some of his presentation was an attempt to hustle; but he also believed in what he was doing. same thing with the ESFP boss I worked for, for a year -- he thought everyone could be like him and benefit in the same way... but people not of his personality would flounder trying to be like him and following the same opportunities.

 

[white]

I'd say a perfect hoaxer must have a huge amount of functional empathy: the skills to "read" their victims, express understanding, adapt their own behaviour to it and then coldly close the deal.
ENTP's should be excellent at this.

ENTPs are not that bad...

You know how much skill it takes to create a story that someone believes in, and to take their money/time, and still have them liking you even though they know they've been fooled?

Ai mee.... verily, we're misunderstood...

folks call this cold... why... it takes great passion to be a craftsman of life...

 

[elfinchilde]

I think that to really own the game, you need to be an ExTP.

by elimination:

ENFPs, as Jennifer says, may be too soft hearted to really go in for the kill. Plus, most ENFPs appear to lack the long term plotting skills necessary to be a hoaxer. If anything, they're more likely to be accomplices rather than the mastermind.

ESFPs are very keen on scamming: one of my brothers is one. Like your son, Jennifer, he takes absolute pride and delight in ripping off others. But ultimately, i think perhaps because of the F, they can also be very kind and real generous givers, so it balances out. They have soft spots. The way my bro will scam everyone, but he'll let me scam him, even when he knows so.

So yea. that leaves ExTPs. They actually enjoy such stuff. I mean, c'mon. They have ol' Machiavelli as their patron saint. I've never met an ExTP who didn't admire Machiavelli.

 

[mippus]

So yea. that leaves ExTPs. They actually enjoy such stuff. I mean, c'mon. They have ol' Machiavelli as their patron saint. I've never met an ExTP who didn't admire Machiavelli.

I still say ENTP over ESTP since they do not only have the ruthless empathic skills but also the brutal NT-logic that does not have to be b ased on facts...

And ENTP's, don't be offended, as long as we're not personally involved, other NT's, not averse of Macchiavelli themselves, might even admire you for it

 

[elfinchilde]

Actually, mippus, i'm in concurrence with you. I was just too polite to say so.

To cite examples: my resident ENTP once managed to trick our then 13-year-old cousin into believing that spaghetti grew on trees.

She did it with this elaborate story of how the new spaghetti buds would come out, and when the spaghetti was of a certain length, it would be cut off: too early cutting would result in short strands, while too late a harvest would result in overlong strands. Amongst other things. She actually sold the story successfully to him. We only found out when he innocently asked one day if spaghetti was "in season".

Aforesaid ENTP also managed to convince another kid cousin that the kid had been turned invisible by her. (ok, i'll admit, i had a hand in this, but i swear, i was only an accomplice, and i had NOTHING to do with the spaghetti story. *hand to heart* )

Don't even ask me why an ENTP would do all this, apart from sheer enjoyment of trickery and ownership, i really can't think of any other insane reason. The scary thing is, it's their natural mode, and they actually enjoy it, near effortlessly.

this didn't come from me. I'm just a little intp elf. I perceive i may need to go into now. (in case anyone has ever wondered why elves are quicksilver and masters of evasion, here's your answer. )

 

[zarc]

I wanna pick two!

ENTPs. Evil but oh so

I'm fairly certain the younger bro of my best friend is an ENTP. Or an ESTP/ESFP.. stupid brat can fool nearly anyone -_-'' and ride on people's emotions... When a bit younger, even myself-- but then Ni would tick tock and I'd figure him out just as he'd begun laughing that I was tricked to begin with. Grrr.

What a cute kid, though. Didn't happen enough, but just enough to be fond of him.

Edit: On second thought, perhaps an ESFP.. he'd apologise if he seriously upset someone, never mind people he's close to and just didn't realise at the time just how 'bad' whatever he did/said actually was ("But why? Oh, really? Awww, I'm sorry." <-- and he'd mean it and make it up to you, sometimes !_!) And he has.. morals haaaa and he's learned to tame himself a bit

 

[white]

Craft. A good story is a craft.

Actually, you missed out the part about how in autumn, Italian women would harvest them in armfuls, and once their aprons were full, they'd pack them into little bags for sale. That is how they arrive on our shores. And that is why when he eats a spaghetti noodle, he should not waste it as it took a lot of painstaking work. Always remember the woman behind each noodle he's slurping.

And hey. That cousin loves me even today.

We're not brutal. We really mean no harm. The purpose is the story itself, there was never an intent to trick the person. You see the line?

 

[zarc]

^ Bite me!

 

[white]

^ Said the masochist to the sadist.

"I won't", replied the sadist.

 

[zarc]

^ Oooh, good.

All too true...

ENTPs

 

[white]

you've too many moths above your head.

But tis hard to be an ENTP. No one trusts you. They all think you're a hoaxer. But really, the intent is not there (the pleasure yes)... . that's the differentiator between a trickster to evil I think... Intent...

And ENTPs appear as hoaxers maybe because they seek the audience. Perhaps the best hoaxers are never really known.

I'd have picked INTJ. Put simply, in a game of poker, who'd you think would be hardest to read, bide their time, and change their game and manipulate?

And with that, I leave you guys for bed. *bows*

 

[zarc]

Whoaaaa, no INTJ will bother to put on such an act. Not even daily. What energy have they got to waste on others anyway? Not worth the time interacting with people. Never mind dealing with the consequences of being misunderstood-- or just having to explain why and who and how come they did it. No way Not worth it at all. Close friends/family, sure... but not as an ENTP would play it...

In playing a game such as poker, sure. Why not? There are established rules and it's about trying to Ni past people to trick them (even with just anything, being 10 steps ahead..). Nothing wrong there. People play in expecting such a ploy.

But for fun? I don't think so.. or at least, it's done much more subtly.

Methinks aelan hates INTJs =/ Whyyyyy? (okie, so you've complained..but you've got bad ones around you!) They are so lovable :wubbie!

Like a huddle of bats! I wanna hug my sis now o_o She's a non-fluff, fluffed up INTJ whom I've corrutped! MUAHAHAHA!

INFJs can be evil too o_o''

As for ENTPs not being trusted... close friends/etc may trust you..or at least will have figured you out so that you can't trick'em as much, if not entirely anymore, and will have fun with you. And trust you! And you'll learn how to lessen the erm blows? But it'll be Ne to Ne, babe! Fun fun fun! I wonder that elfie is still sane... better ask her! I'm sure she adores your antics!

Niiiight!

 

[Totenkindly]

I'd have picked INTJ. Put simply, in a game of poker, who'd you think would be hardest to read, bide their time, and change their game and manipulate?

I didn't pick them because they don't really game as much as take a direct approach. They can, if they're feeling playful... but they usually want to construct (and have people follow) their perfect plans of domination. Bwa ha ha.

The EP set adjusts their behavior to what is going on, rather than seeking to overpower directly or just run roughshod over. They are responsive to incoming data, and they choose a response that maxes their rewards.

 

[anii]

I chose ESTP, but would have preferred more choices. That's because an ESTP seems more likely to pull off a con than a hoax. Maybe an ENTP could be more likely to pull of a hoax. But it's too late to change my vote.

 

[Blackmail!]

I chose ESTP, but would have preferred more choices. That's because an ESTP seems more likely to pull off a con than a hoax. Maybe an ENTP could be more likely to pull of a hoax. But it's too late to change my vote.

I agree somehow.

I'd say ESTPs are better suited to become professional crooks or con-artists, while ENTPs are rather hoaxers or tricksters, when they feel the mood for it.

---

ENTPs have the deadliest combination of functions when they need to lie:

-Ne gives the Idea

-Ti corrects inconsistencies to make the lie sound "palatable"

-And Fe allows to behave and act accordingly...

It works because these functions are used in the right order.
But for ENTPs and like any other inventions, lies are only perceived as a game, a possibility among dozens, hence they're never so serious about them. They often forget their lies as quickly as they are able to invent a completely different tale...
There's a bit of Robin Hood into every ENTPs, I think.

---

On the other hand, ESTPs are the ultimate realists, and hence incredibly ruthless. They can lie and make a living of it. They will fool you not because they think it's funny (ENTPs), but because they think you deserved it, because they enjoy punishing gullible persons.

 

[Blackmail!]

About ESTPs:

As an ESTP, you are driven to succeed and to win. Your personality is dominated by your drive to test yourself and to triumph over your fellow man.

This generally expresses itself as an overwhelming urge to prove your self worth (and fatten your wallet) by taking advantage of the suckers, marks, and dupes who surround you--after all, isn't that what they're there for? It's not your fault that their stupidity and gullibility lets them believe you when you say that Hershey's Kissesses exposed to your patented psychic amplifier rays will let them fly! As your hero and fellow ESTP, P. T. Barnum, once said, "it is morally wrong to let a sucker keep his money."

As an ESTP, your greatest fear is failure. Under no circumstances will you permit yourself that kind of weakness, which makes you ideally suited for a job at Enron, where your natural talents can be recognized and rewarded.

RECREATION: ESTPs enjoy recreational activities such as card sharking, pool sharking, and conning little old women out of their lives' savings. They're often fond of polo as well.

Famous ESTPs include P. T. Barnum and DR. PETER OKOYE, SON OF THE LATE PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA M. B. OKOYE, WHO REQUESTS YOUR URGENT ASSISTANCE IN HELPING TO TRANSFER $150,000,000 (THE SUM OF ONE HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION USD) INTO YOUR U.S. BANK ACCOUNT SO THAT IT MAY BE DISTRIBUTED TO NEEDY CHILDREN, IN GOD'S CHARITY.

The REAL Personality Types Made Relevant

 

[Hexis]

I vote ENTJ, me and The Brothers had this friend a long time ago while we where still in high school who loved to scam people.

Ok this is a true story here, this kid told him "hey man look this new watch my dad got me." well our friend tells him its a peice of crap and hell buy it off of him for 50 bucks.
The kid being an idiot was like "Seriously, well ok I could use 50 dollars". So he take the kids watch sells it to another kid for 100 dollars, uses that 100 dollars to buy one of the nerdy kids card collections. And (with my help lol) sold the cards seperately for anywhere from 5-30$ a peice. After selling a majority of the collection he let me have the left overs of the collection (cause of course i was one of those card geeks in high school and i was able to show him which ones where the most wanted and rarest) and he made off with a little over 300 dollars from the cards. This one of his most amazing feets at school, but hes been able to do anything from talk people into buying him lunch to selling cheap ass pens for 10 bucks a peice.

This guy was good.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

ENTPs have the deadliest combination of functions when they need to lie:

-Ne gives the Idea

-Ti corrects inconsistencies to make the lie sound "palatable"

-And Fe allows to behave and act accordingly...

Sadly I have to agree, the reasoning seems unbeatable. I don't find it all that great to recognize hoaxer qualities in myself or my type..

But then, I do think that the big-picture view of ENTP somehow makes their behavior more consistent with the reality, even though they are supposedly less reality-orientated than the ESTP. So I've got mixed feelings whether I should vote ENTP or ESTP.

Then again, I absolutely can't forget devoted ENFJ-gone-wrong who will lead their followers to their doom. They can just play with their audience's expectations and group mentality like no other, leading groups to adopt almost any behavior and practices they wish. But then again, people try to avoid becoming "believers", knowing how detrimental some group mentality can be. Still, ENFJ can be a tremendous actor in propagating false beliefs and hopes. I don't see them doing a lot of that, tho.