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  1. #31
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mippus View Post
    I absolutely understand what you say, and of course it is vital. Still: where is the line with ignoring the abuse? It should be given some weight, but how much? What is empathy, what is stigma?
    First off, no one should ever ignore abuse. The question isn't whether abuse should be addressed, but how it should be addressed.

    Empathy is the ability to relate to what a person is going through. If an individual is defining a person as a victim, then they are demonstrating very little empathy. That is stigma. It comes down to communication. People should never assume how a victim feels, but should talk with them, be there to support them, and remind them of their strength and ability to overcome. That is empathy.

    The difference is quite simple, stigma is defining a victim by what has happened to them, empathy is being there for the victim and reminding them of their strength.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #32
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    First off, no one should ever ignore abuse. The question isn't whether abuse should be addressed, but how it should be addressed.

    Empathy is the ability to relate to what a person is going through. If an individual is defining a person as a victim, then they are demonstrating very little empathy. That is stigma. It comes down to communication. People should never assume how a victim feels, but should talk with them, be there to support them, and remind them of their strength and ability to overcome. That is empathy.

    The difference is quite simple, stigma is defining a victim by what has happened to them, empathy is being there for the victim and reminding them of their strength.
    If you gasp and say "Oh no", even to a child, they respond as if something is wrong. Perhaps this response is wrong as it then loads your negative emotion on someone already struggling.

    That's the cost of social "empathy". Not only do you have your own emotions to deal with but also society doing drive by emoting.

    I realise that as I'm a T I'm far more likely to try to fix things than be there for someone but I've found that if people are quiet and just act as sounding boards the person is a lot less upset than if their "shoulder to cry on" has also lot it and is sobbing uncontrollably. If forget what had happened but at several points in life I distinctly recall having to console my consoler... most confusing..
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #33
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.

  4. #34
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.
    I knew there was a correct neutral word, but for some reason I couldn't place it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #35
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.
    Ceasing to see myself as a victim of childhood emotional, physical, and sexual abuse, and instead accepting those events as things that happened was the single most important thing I did in terms of taking responsibility for my own happiness in this life, and in turn, experiencing it.


    cheers,
    Ian

  6. #36
    Senior Member Oso Mocoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    That's why psychologists and social workers prefer to use the term 'survivor' instead of 'victim'. A small change, certainly, but a change in terminology could always make an impact.
    One of my best friends was a "survivor" as you put it. A survivor of childhood incest to be exact. I don't think the exact term made much difference. She was really hard to deal with when she came to terms with the abuse. It took her a while to really accept what had happened to her ... and it involved many conversations that I wasn't really equipped to deal with.

    I did the best I could, but I wasn't really prepared to deal with the emotional needs of someone who'd been so abused as a child. I had no idea how to respond. I mean, this was someone I loved, but what should I say? I just had no idea. I tried to be comforting, but I don't know how effective I was.

  7. #37
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oso Mocoso View Post
    I did the best I could, but I wasn't really prepared to deal with the emotional needs of someone who'd been so abused as a child. I had no idea how to respond. I mean, this was someone I loved, but what should I say? I just had no idea. I tried to be comforting, but I don't know how effective I was.
    Oso Mocoso, most of the times, just being there for the person and letting them know that you love them and you want to help is very comforting. I'm sure she felt that and appreciated it.


    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    Ceasing to see myself as a victim of childhood emotional, physical, and sexual abuse, and instead accepting those events as things that happened was the single most important thing I did in terms of taking responsibility for my own happiness in this life, and in turn, experiencing it.

    That's wonderful, aeon.

  8. #38
    Senior Member creativeRhino's Avatar
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    my husband was abused as a 4 year old (by the 13 year old girl neighbour - whose half-brothers "procured" him - use your imagination about how a 13 yo would even think of this...).

    For him it was the powerlessness he felt - he didn't want the to be part of the girl's activities but he was terrorised/pressured into it AND made to fear the consequences of telling anybody.

    So, the way I see it -
    Abuse is when -
    something is done by somebody has power over another
    and the act is for the benefit of the abuser, not the target/abusee (eg sexual or other violent physical or emotional thing)
    and may rely on secrecy.

    ie it relies on one party being powerless in the transaction.

  9. #39
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooky View Post
    I have been thinking about this for a few years.
    I know some-one who was sexually abused by their farther as a adolescent and it has left them with all sorts of issues, and there’s no deigning its WRONG…………But;

    I read a book a few years ago about ancient Egypt (Fiction), and it was saying that people of high status often had young boys they would keep in their house and sleep with. The lead character was also being abused by her farther, but there was no stigma attached to this. She was fine with it as it was part and parcel of her normal life and accepted to be the norm by all around her.
    A few years back in this country it was normal to take 5yr olds to work down the mine, or to give them 6 weeks of school and force them to help with the harvest.
    In fact there’s lots of things that are now considered abuse which where perfectly normal a few years ago.

    I’m probably not explaining very well, but basically is abuse still abuse if it’s accepted as the normal way of things by society as a whole? Is it the stigma attached to it that makes it so damaging?
    I don't think it's just social stigma that makes it wrong.
    It is inherently wrong per the Laws of the God of the Universe, just like murder and stealing.
    It's not okay for one person to violate another person's innocence,
    or use their body for their own selfish lusts.
    I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the writer of that work of fiction you described actually had an agenda of promoting pedophilia.
    They wouldn't be the first.

  10. #40
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I don't think it's just social stigma that makes it wrong.
    I agree. The question is: How much does the stigma add to the trauma. Was it equally traumatic in societies that accepted it?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    It is inherently wrong per the Laws of the God of the Universe, just like murder and stealing.
    Laws about stealing and killing don't seem to be universal though, and have through history generally only applied to people within the same society/perceived community.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    It's not okay for one person to violate another person's innocence,
    or use their body for their own selfish lusts.
    Not by our standards, no (unless all sex could be considered using someone's body for your own selfish lust), but this hasn't always been the rule and still isn't in some parts of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the writer of that work of fiction you described actually had an agenda of promoting pedophilia.
    They wouldn't be the first.
    I tend to agree with this. Either that or simply explore the subject we're discussing. If it's one sided, it's generally the first.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

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