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  1. #21
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooky View Post
    my main question is "are we by putting such a stigma to abuse, causing more pain to the people we are trying to protect?"
    OH!

    Yes. We always punish everyone for the actions of the most depraved, deluded and idiotic. However unless you establish that something is very very wrong then how can you dissuade people from doing it? It's not like you can police it very well.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't know if this is connected, but I ran across this "rape" t-shirt the other day, with an opened safe on it and inside are the tiny words "I was raped."

    Some people thought this was a good idea, allowing victims of rape to feel like they could speak up and stop keeping such a dreadful secret. Others thought it just contributed to the social stigma of rape.
    Not to trivialise this but I have to wonder where their thinking comes from. Can you also get a t-shirt with a large yellow stain saying "I'm a bed wetter"?

    Maybe it's my British sensibilities but I would really not want to go around with a sandwich board on me stating my most personal troubles.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
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    I think child labor really isn't abuse as long as the needs of the children are considered and we make sure child workers really want to work and that their money is not expendable to their parents directly, but that's all I think has gone "backwards". For the most part, our standards of abuse have become better.

  4. #24
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooky View Post
    Thats not really what I was asking, I belive these things to be Wrong. I dont see how they could not be considered wrong.

    What Xander managed to answer really quite well was how could it be right at a point in time or some cultures but be wrong now.

    but my main question is "are we by putting such a stigma to abuse, causing more pain to the people we are trying to protect?"
    Go read the "Fostering Victimhood" thread if you want a good demonstration of the stigma and the powerfully socialized emotions that are associated with sexual abuse.

    Ultimately your friend has to do two things in order to move forward in life.

    1. Accept that it isn't her fault.
    2. Accept responsibility for her life from now on so she can leave the past behind her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #25
    you are right mippus's Avatar
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    ... so we are not to judge the victim, they should have their own way of dealing with the situation. I agree. But we can judge the offender? And the sick logic in these matters seems to be that judging the offender seems to include some sort of statement on how victims should/could behave...
    Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas

  6. #26
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Not to trivialise this but I have to wonder where their thinking comes from. Can you also get a t-shirt with a large yellow stain saying "I'm a bed wetter"?

    Maybe it's my British sensibilities but I would really not want to go around with a sandwich board on me stating my most personal troubles.

    Actually, I do think a t-shirt like that could be a good idea for some people. The rape victim didn't do anything wrong, the victim has nothing to be ashamed of. It could provide a lot of relief, knowing that you don't have to keep this a secret.

  7. #27
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mippus View Post
    ... so we are not to judge the victim, they should have their own way of dealing with the situation. I agree. But we can judge the offender? And the sick logic in these matters seems to be that judging the offender seems to include some sort of statement on how victims should/could behave...
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #28
    you are right mippus's Avatar
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    It is horrible to have to express yourself in your non-native language in matters as difficult as these. Let me try, but please, forgive me any possible unintended bluntness due to my linguistic limitations.

    We (rightfully) label offenders as such, but then -as some sort of consequence- may take a very confusing stand on victims. Something like a form of compassion and empathy but at the same moment an attitude that says "don't be a victim, be strong, don't let them do this to you". I always found this a very confusing attitude. A result to this confusement may be that it becomes close to impossible for victims to "do what is right".
    And now back on topic: eventhough taboos can be very destructive, they may also give people some shelter, some privacy. I find this question on the value/danger of taboos an extremely difficult one. The thought above is just one example of how it is difficult for me to judge since taboo subjects can be so complex...
    Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas

  9. #29
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mippus View Post
    It is horrible to have to express yourself in your non-native language in matters as difficult as these. Let me try, but please, forgive me any possible unintended bluntness due to my linguistic limitations.

    We (rightfully) label offenders as such, but then -as some sort of consequence- may take a very confusing stand on victims. Something like a form of compassion and empathy but at the same moment an attitude that says "don't be a victim, be strong, don't let them do this to you". I always found this a very confusing attitude. A result to this confusement may be that it becomes close to impossible for victims to "do what is right".
    I'm sorry its confusing for you but that is the reality of being a victim. No one said being a victim was easy. They not only have to suffer the actual abuse, but also the stigma that is associated with being a victim of abuse. If a victim is going to have any hope of moving forward and not blaming themselves, then they need to eventually take responsiblity for their own lives. That is how they will be able to function and how they will develop the confidence and understanding to eventually realize that it wasn't their fault. If you only treat someone as a victim then that is how they will act. It's important for victims to know that people understand what they have been through, but victims also need to be reminded that they have the strength to overcome it. That is why people need to provide support by defining victims by their strengths, not the abuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #30
    you are right mippus's Avatar
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    I absolutely understand what you say, and of course it is vital. Still: where is the line with ignoring the abuse? It should be given some weight, but how much? What is empathy, what is stigma?
    Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas

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