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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default The Dunning–Kruger Effect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
    "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.

    "Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others". The effect is about paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others."

    I'm just learning about this, but it's something I've observed in people for many years. I think my observations started with this guy I knew online who thought he was a great hacker, but he was only a mirc kiddie scripter, and at that time I observed that he had some mental block concerning how tiny his knowledge of such things as hacking really was. And so he was overly-confident of his "l33t" hacking abilities.

    Over the years I've observed this same phenomenon in people online and irl. For an irl example, I can NOT convince an INTJ co-worker that he doesn't know enough about some subject that is not in his field of specialty no matter how hard I try. And in the long run, he will simply say he's right because of his social standing. This is called Argument from Authority, but pointing out informal logical fallacies also has no effect since social standing is superior to all reasoning and logic.

    Now at least I can give this phenomenon a name. But it would be incorrect to say that such people are 'unskilled,' their confidence is simply greater than their knowledge of a subject.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
    "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.

    "Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others". The effect is about paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others."

    I'm just learning about this, but it's something I've observed in people for many years. I think my observations started with this guy I knew online who thought he was a great hacker, but he was only a mirc kiddie scripter, and at that time I observed that he had some mental block concerning how tiny his knowledge of such things as hacking really was. And so he was overly-confident of his "l33t" hacking abilities.

    Over the years I've observed this same phenomenon in people online and irl. For an irl example, I can NOT convince an INTJ co-worker that he doesn't know enough about some subject that is not in his field of specialty no matter how hard I try. And in the long run, he will simply say he's right because of his social standing. This is called Argument from Authority, but pointing out informal logical fallacies also has no effect since social standing is superior to all reasoning and logic.

    Now at least I can give this phenomenon a name. But it would be incorrect to say that such people are 'unskilled,' their confidence is simply greater than their knowledge of a subject.
    I think this is a case for humility being seen as a sign of intelligence.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    I think this is a case for humility being seen as a sign of intelligence.
    Yes, intelligence regarding a certain topic. Or as in my own case, I never considered myself to be terribly intelligent in general. At one time, I estimated my own IQ to be 115, long before I ever knew my test score. I underestimated because I didn't place much important on such things, so mine was a natural or naive form of humility. (Edit - knowing my IQ was not a question of self-esteem, just to explain what I mean by importance.)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #4
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Yes, intelligence regarding a certain topic. Or as in my own case, I never considered myself to be terribly intelligent in general. At one time, I estimated my own IQ to be 115, long before I ever knew my test score. I underestimated because I didn't put much stock in such things, so mine was a natural or naive form of humility.
    I suppose I could be in the same boat, but determining whether you are humble because of natural circumstances, or realizing your state as being average; which, to those reading is NOT, I repeat NOT a bad thing brings about humility seems hard to discern.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    I suppose I could be in the same boat, but determining whether you are humble because of natural circumstances, or realizing your state as being average; which, to those reading is NOT, I repeat NOT a bad thing brings about humility seems hard to discern.
    I hope the edit I made above clarifies what I meant by that. My self-esteem was not caught up in the issue of IQ, so I didn't care what my IQ was, but somehow I underestimated my IQ because, as I recall, I had this natural or naive humility and not the kind that puts on some pretense. It was just the opposite of the Dunning-Kruger effect which is most commonly seen in Asians according to a study (I'm not Asian).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #6
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I hope the edit I made above clarifies what I meant by that. My self-esteem was not caught up in the issue of IQ, so I didn't care what my IQ was, but somehow I underestimated my IQ because, as I recall, I had this natural or naive humility and not the kind that puts on some pretense. It was just the opposite of the Dunning-Kruger effect which is most commonly seen in Asians according to a study (I'm not Asian).
    Oh, yes, I understood that .

    That whole culture is rather subdued (or controlled may be a better word for it)... Not really surprised by the statistics.

  7. #7
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Knowledge on a topic is not always equivalent to IQ- but it does make sense that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
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  8. #8
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    That's what my favorite teacher said in high school: the wisest man is he who realizes how little he knows.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Knowledge on a topic is not always equivalent to IQ- but it does make sense that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
    The more you realize you don't know, the more your mind opens up to new knowledge.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #10
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    The more you realize you don't know, the more your mind opens up to new knowledge.
    you want to know everything as opposed to already knowing everything.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

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