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The Dunning–Kruger Effect

Octarine

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Is it necessarily just knowledge though, or experiences that let us become aware of our ignorance?
 

Totenkindly

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I wonder what leads to this lack of perspective though? It doesn't seem to be clearly linked to type or intelligence for example, but something else. Is it merely lack of experience?

Well, I've routinely struggled with it. Experience did help me, though -- the more time I spent around people whose I was able to engage and press for more information, the more I realized they didn't know as much as they thought they did. Their lack of understanding led them to remain unaware to how much they didn't actually know. Meanwhile, I was always too acutely aware of what I didn't know, and since I didn't want to say something wrong, I would be careful not to state more than what I knew.

So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.
 

Totenkindly

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Is it necessarily just knowledge though, or experiences that let us become aware of our ignorance?

Maybe the experience of realizing, with no possibility of escape, that what you thought you knew is wrong?
 

CzeCze

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Thanks [MENTION=13589]mal12345[/MENTION] I'm going to quote "The Dunning–Kruger Effect" next time I enter into a hopeless argument with an INTJ or ENTP.

Full of win!
 

King sns

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Is it necessarily just knowledge though, or experiences that let us become aware of our ignorance?

Yeah, simple experience will do it too, I think- just traveling out of the country, or meeting someone who's experience range is completely different from your own, seeing things with new eyes- I think that sometimes coming across people who mentally know less- (or maybe know more, or may have a lower IQ but more experience) or whatever the case may be, can open my eyes (or anyone's eyes) to things that we have never thought of before. Sometimes I talk to people and my jaw is on the ground and I think, "wow, I'm so ignorant to this whole idea/ whole lifestyle/whole other way of being"- and then you think about the billions of people alive, and the hundreds of billions of people who lived, and realize that life and the world (and everything else) could have a wholly different meaning than I realize- or will ever realize. It doesn't make as much sense to think about it as knowledge or IQ- I think it's just about awareness vs. ignorance in general.
 

wolfy

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So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.

I came to the same realisation somewhere along the line. Sometimes it is hard to spot, until they tread in areas you are knowledgeable in.
 

Mal12345

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How does a lack of self esteem lead to overconfidence? I would perhaps expect the opposite.

If, according to Maslow, self-esteem is a basic human need, then it's going to be manufactured out of thin air, if need be. This is called pseudo-self-esteem, and it goes back to the basic need to survive (even if under false pretenses).
 

tinker683

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So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.

I've actually done this myself a few times and in my defense, I've done this as I am often placed in a position of leadership (which I really don't like but I seem to continually find myself surrounded by people who don't know what they're doing) and I've found that speaking confidently and with authority is enough to get most people to go ahead and make you the de facto leader.

To quote a famous starship captain of the Enterprise, "Sometimes a captain must give the appearance of confidence"

Half the time I don't know what the flipping-frell I'm doing but I'm making my best guess and going with it :shrug: I know damned well I don't know enough enough but it seems like nobody else is going to do anything so someone needs too. I hope the Effect doesn't apply to me :(
 

Thalassa

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Thanks [MENTION=13589]mal12345[/MENTION] I'm going to quote "The Dunning–Kruger Effect" next time I enter into a hopeless argument with an INTJ or ENTP.

Full of win!

I thought something similar.
 

Thalassa

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How does a lack of self esteem lead to overconfidence? I would perhaps expect the opposite.

This is what happens with narcissists as well, they overcompensate to even delude themselves that they don't have low self-esteem.

In normal, non-pathological people though, it still happens. As a counterphobic 6, I spent my earlier childhood years being pretty meek and non-confrontational, until I got bullied a few times in middle school. I'm not sure what happened, whether it was hormonal or psychological or both, but I suddenly became more assertive around the age of 12 or 13, and by 16 had no issue with going as far as to hit GUYS twice my size for talking shit to me.

Scrappy Doo, lol.

But yeah I think sometimes these guys who run around the Intertardz saying they're geniuses and they always know better and everyone else is a peon (like the reference that Cze Cze made to arguments with certain ENTPs or INTJs) actually have low self-esteem. However, there's the possibility too that some of them are full blown narcissists who don't even realize it themselves, which is what makes narcissists so dangerous - lack of empathy for others because they don't even recognize the realistic weakness in themselves.
 

Thalassa

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Oh also you can be trained in certain classes in college for example to bullshit with confidence. English teachers want you to write as though you know what you're talking about, and I'm sure this goes to much deeper depths with people who say, go to law school, for example.

In these cases, though, we know we're doing it so that people will pay attention. At least I do.
 

Lily flower

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This would really explain those people who try out for America's Got Talent and American Idol who are absolutely horrible, and equally convinced that they are amazing.
 

Mal12345

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Some people are convinced by others of their greatness. I think many American Idol hopefuls may have been unintentionally duped in this manner, perhaps by friends and relatives who are just trying to help.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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"Intelligence on a certain topic" is roughly equivalent to "one's running speed with rocket shoes attached".

As a hint, running speed isn't measured like that. Nor is one's intelligence.
 

Such Irony

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This would really explain those people who try out for America's Got Talent and American Idol who are absolutely horrible, and equally convinced that they are amazing.

Some people are convinced by others of their greatness. I think many American Idol hopefuls may have been unintentionally duped in this manner, perhaps by friends and relatives who are just trying to help.

Some also know they suck and go on the show for their 15 minutes of fame.
 

Such Irony

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.

"Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others". The effect is about paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others."

When reading this I couldn't help but think about the four stages of competence. Illusory superiority correlates with the first stage- unconsciously incompetent. Underestimating your competence sounds like it corresponds to the fourth stage- unconsciously competent. You just perform the skill without thinking much about it, taking it for granted, perhaps not realizing how good you really are.
 

Mal12345

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When reading this I couldn't help but think about the four stages of competence. Illusory superiority correlates with the first stage- unconsciously incompetent. Underestimating your competence sounds like it corresponds to the fourth stage- unconsciously competent. You just perform the skill without thinking much about it, taking it for granted, perhaps not realizing how good you really are.

I didn't know about the stages of competence. But I'm mainly describing the first stage, unconsciously incompetent. Someone reaching for whatever shreds of self-esteem he can by overestimating his own talents.
 

wolfy

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I didn't know about the stages of competence. But I'm mainly describing the first stage, unconsciously incompetent. Someone reaching for whatever shreds of self-esteem he can by overestimating his own talents.

Someone who is unconsciously incompetent is unaware of their incompetence. It is the second and third stage where what you are talking about would occur.

Edit: No, that is what I always thought but it doesn't sound like it on that wiki page.
 
G

Glycerine

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Well, I've routinely struggled with it. Experience did help me, though -- the more time I spent around people whose I was able to engage and press for more information, the more I realized they didn't know as much as they thought they did. Their lack of understanding led them to remain unaware to how much they didn't actually know. Meanwhile, I was always too acutely aware of what I didn't know, and since I didn't want to say something wrong, I would be careful not to state more than what I knew.

So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.
Reminds me of "The Apology". by Plato... lol
 
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