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  1. #21
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Is it necessarily just knowledge though, or experiences that let us become aware of our ignorance?

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    I wonder what leads to this lack of perspective though? It doesn't seem to be clearly linked to type or intelligence for example, but something else. Is it merely lack of experience?
    Well, I've routinely struggled with it. Experience did help me, though -- the more time I spent around people whose I was able to engage and press for more information, the more I realized they didn't know as much as they thought they did. Their lack of understanding led them to remain unaware to how much they didn't actually know. Meanwhile, I was always too acutely aware of what I didn't know, and since I didn't want to say something wrong, I would be careful not to state more than what I knew.

    So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    Is it necessarily just knowledge though, or experiences that let us become aware of our ignorance?
    Maybe the experience of realizing, with no possibility of escape, that what you thought you knew is wrong?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Thanks @mal12345 I'm going to quote "The Dunning–Kruger Effect" next time I enter into a hopeless argument with an INTJ or ENTP.

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  5. #25
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    Is it necessarily just knowledge though, or experiences that let us become aware of our ignorance?
    Yeah, simple experience will do it too, I think- just traveling out of the country, or meeting someone who's experience range is completely different from your own, seeing things with new eyes- I think that sometimes coming across people who mentally know less- (or maybe know more, or may have a lower IQ but more experience) or whatever the case may be, can open my eyes (or anyone's eyes) to things that we have never thought of before. Sometimes I talk to people and my jaw is on the ground and I think, "wow, I'm so ignorant to this whole idea/ whole lifestyle/whole other way of being"- and then you think about the billions of people alive, and the hundreds of billions of people who lived, and realize that life and the world (and everything else) could have a wholly different meaning than I realize- or will ever realize. It doesn't make as much sense to think about it as knowledge or IQ- I think it's just about awareness vs. ignorance in general.
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.
    I came to the same realisation somewhere along the line. Sometimes it is hard to spot, until they tread in areas you are knowledgeable in.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    How does a lack of self esteem lead to overconfidence? I would perhaps expect the opposite.
    If, according to Maslow, self-esteem is a basic human need, then it's going to be manufactured out of thin air, if need be. This is called pseudo-self-esteem, and it goes back to the basic need to survive (even if under false pretenses).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #28
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So my experience helped me realize that not everyone else is like me that way. There are people who are perfectly fine speaking boldly on things they know nothing about, as if they did.
    I've actually done this myself a few times and in my defense, I've done this as I am often placed in a position of leadership (which I really don't like but I seem to continually find myself surrounded by people who don't know what they're doing) and I've found that speaking confidently and with authority is enough to get most people to go ahead and make you the de facto leader.

    To quote a famous starship captain of the Enterprise, "Sometimes a captain must give the appearance of confidence"

    Half the time I don't know what the flipping-frell I'm doing but I'm making my best guess and going with it I know damned well I don't know enough enough but it seems like nobody else is going to do anything so someone needs too. I hope the Effect doesn't apply to me
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Thanks @mal12345 I'm going to quote "The Dunning–Kruger Effect" next time I enter into a hopeless argument with an INTJ or ENTP.

    Full of win!
    I thought something similar.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    How does a lack of self esteem lead to overconfidence? I would perhaps expect the opposite.
    This is what happens with narcissists as well, they overcompensate to even delude themselves that they don't have low self-esteem.

    In normal, non-pathological people though, it still happens. As a counterphobic 6, I spent my earlier childhood years being pretty meek and non-confrontational, until I got bullied a few times in middle school. I'm not sure what happened, whether it was hormonal or psychological or both, but I suddenly became more assertive around the age of 12 or 13, and by 16 had no issue with going as far as to hit GUYS twice my size for talking shit to me.

    Scrappy Doo, lol.

    But yeah I think sometimes these guys who run around the Intertardz saying they're geniuses and they always know better and everyone else is a peon (like the reference that Cze Cze made to arguments with certain ENTPs or INTJs) actually have low self-esteem. However, there's the possibility too that some of them are full blown narcissists who don't even realize it themselves, which is what makes narcissists so dangerous - lack of empathy for others because they don't even recognize the realistic weakness in themselves.

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