User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Fact and Faith

  1. #1
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524

    Smile Fact and Faith

    I have discovered there is no way back. I have discovered there is no way home. Once I have left home, I can't find my way back.

    Once I learnt to think critically, once I learnt to dissent, I found I no longer had the comforts of faith.

    But worse, I didn't want to take things for granted anymore. Rather I reveled in critique.

    And even in the face of social rejection, I found I could not help but criticise and dissent. And I loved it. It tickled something deep inside me. And it appealed to my conscience.

    But the strange thing is that it has transformed me from a good boy to an exuberant dissenter.

    And I look back to that good little boy and know I can never go back to the comforts of trust and faith.

    As a good boy I was taught faith and reason and to believe only what is reasonable. But today I follow reason and empirical evidence because they lead to fact.

  2. #2
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Hmmm. i think that this following reasoning and empirical evidence also needs faith. you have faith in the evidence and the reasoning.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Researc...tific_research

    like it says there, a hypothesis can never be proven, but only supported by scientific research. so, if you believe that the empirical research is the truth, its about faith too. i like to reason and see empirical evidence as a back up for a theory, some of the thwories can have so much evidence and be reasoned so clearly that they are almost seen as the truth and used like the truth, but nevertheless ots just a theory, just highly supported one.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  3. #3
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    Aeon
    Enneagram
    10w so
    Socionics
    LOL
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But today I follow reason and empirical evidence because they lead to fact.
    So now you have faith in reason and empiricism.
    Last edited by Octarine; 08-31-2011 at 06:51 AM. Reason: why does the winking smiley have to be ugly?

  4. #4
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,472

    Default

    I find that everybody has a type of faith. Some people just don't recognize it and many have a knee jerk reaction to anything implying that they do. I find it amusing that the people who aspire to be the most logical have to delude themselves in order to ever feel that they reached their goals. We are not completely rational creatures, nor can we afford to be. A list of things behaviors people espouse that involves denial of current empirical evidence, or cannot be supported by it:

    1. It is better to be alive than dead, or visa versa.
    2. You have freewill.
    3. Your way of [thinking/doing/governing/etc] is better. Define better by fact. You can only define it according to a goal, which is defined by values, which is an unconsciously and prerational set of rules we learned. The rules may be dictated by a greater survival impulse, see item 1.

  5. #5
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524

    Default

    I think it is important to say that faith is not based on emprical evidence. For instance, there is no empirical evidence establishing the nature or even the existence of the Trinity. And when you put this to the believers in the Trinity, all they say is that the Trinity is a mystery, not a fact.

  6. #6
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524

    Default

    And if everyone has faith there is no way to distinguish between those with faith and those without. And so the statement, everyone has faith, is indistinguishable from, no one has faith.

    So to say, everyone has faith is the same as saying, no one has faith.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    2
    Posts
    931

    Default

    I think what you are referring to may be not necessarily critical thinking, but skepticism. I have found is that often people who develop a skeptical side err too much in the wrong direction also, just as people who have blind faith sometimes do. Remember that at one time, Galileo said that the earth went around the sun and it was the skeptics who said, no, clearly the sun goes around the earth, just look up in the sky. Skepticism can lead to just as much error as blind faith.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,370

    Default

    Weird, it's actually the opposite for me. Now I have no choice but to accept faith as inseparable from science. Reality only has meaning because we give it meaning; it's essential to everything, especially our dna, especially our unconscious influences. If you analyze what it means to perceive and how that relates to existence, you'll probably realize existence is meaningless without it.

    I realized there is no meaning of the word objective without the subjective and no meaning of subjective without the objective. chicken or the egg.

  9. #9
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Reality only has meaning because we give it meaning;
    Sure, we observe patterns and give them meaning, but some patterns are true and some aren't. For instance, for 200,000 years we observed the Sun moving across the sky, and the meaning we gave this observation was that the Sun goes round the Earth.

    In the same way, for 200,000 years we observed patterns in nature and gave them meanings. The predominent meaning we gave the patterns of nature was Animism. We knew no better tnan to ascribe agency to inanimate matter.

    And we personified the agency we thought we saw in nature. And so we explained nature in terms of the supernatural, and supernatural agents such as God.

    However in the Enlightenment in the West in the 17th and 18th Centuries, we discovered the scientific method. And so we started to look for empirical evidence of the supernatural, but found none.

    And so today in societies based on the Enlighenment, the only way we can believe in the supernatural is through blind faith.

    And today, because the supernaturalists have no intellectual integrity, they became hysterical and elevate faith to a virtue in itself.

    In fact the supernaturalists are in mourning for their God who died in the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries.

    All except the Islamists who have never experienced the Enlightenment and who naively believe Allah created the world and the species in it, including ourselves, homo sapiens.

  10. #10
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,472

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sure, we observe patterns and give them meaning, but some patterns are true and some aren't. For instance, for 200,000 years we observed the Sun moving across the sky, and the meaning we gave this observation was that the Sun goes round the Earth.
    In the same way, for 200,000 years we observed patterns in nature and gave them meanings. The predominent meaning we gave the patterns of nature was Animism. We knew no better tnan to ascribe agency to inanimate matter.

    And we personified the agency we thought we saw in nature. And so we explained nature in terms of the supernatural, and supernatural agents such as God.

    [snip]
    That's not meaning, that's just more fact. That's like saying that 1+1 means 2. Meaning is where fact intersects conciousness. Apollo still lives, although we may not personify him anymore. If he's been depreciated, it's by the electric lightbulb. Technology has its own gods and rituals.

Similar Threads

  1. Mentally disabled and faith
    By sleuthiness in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-15-2013, 02:38 PM
  2. Historicity and Faith
    By ygolo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 09-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-12-2011, 04:33 PM
  4. Evaluating sources of science facts and what is the current scientific viewpoint
    By ygolo in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-14-2008, 08:00 PM
  5. Derail from "On Spiritual Gifts": Determining faith-fact from faith-fiction
    By sassafrassquatch in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-28-2007, 03:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO