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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    There's reform to accomplish liberal goals and there's also reform to accomplish conservative goals; the act of reform itself is neutral.
    And what exactly are liberal goals, if I may ask?

  2. #82
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And what exactly are liberal goals, if I may ask?
    They vaguely seek to create a greater degree of egalitarianism, while also maintaining personal liberty.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Stick this in your pipe and smoke it.
    Intelligence is not the only thing that governs whether a person can gets 4 year degree. Being able to pay for it makes a big difference.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I said it once, I'll say it again: gotta love manichean-style politics.
    Can you elaborate on this?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Ah, so you're a believer in absolute determinism. Alright, so if a person is biologically predetermined to a set of features and qualities that are likely to result in his success, why is it fair to reward them to the detriment of someone who committed no crime but to lose the genetic lottery?

    For the record, the verdict is still out on the determinism vs. free will debate, with various fields of science coming to different conclusions, so it wouldn't make sense to structure a society on an unverifiable idea but rather the pragmatic approach would be to perfect the systems that we already use.
    One needn't rely on science to come to the conclusion that free will is ultimately impossible. I do not necessarily believe that everything is predetermined, but I do believe that humans are not really in control of their own actions; whether it is a result of the structure of our brains, or some metaphysical concept about which I am currently unfamiliar, there must be something that governs our actions. You must realize that thoughts and desires come to you by no fault of your own, no? The only thing I do know is that people are substantively different than one another, and I cannot fairly judge another because I have not walked in his shoes.

    I am not calling for a rejection of any particular system, but simply referencing the fact that judging a system based upon its unfairness is probably not the best way to go about it, since every system is inherently unfair.
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  6. #86
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    One needn't rely on science to come to the conclusion that free will is ultimately impossible. I do not necessarily believe that everything is predetermined, but I do believe that humans are not really in control of their own actions; whether it is a result of the structure of our brains, or some metaphysical concept about which I am currently unfamiliar, there must be something that governs our actions. You must realize that thoughts and desires come to you by no fault of your own, no? The only thing I do know is that people are substantively different than one another, and I cannot fairly judge another because I have not walked in his shoes.

    I am not calling for a rejection of any particular system, but simply referencing the fact that judging a system based upon its unfairness is probably not the best way to go about it, since every system is inherently unfair.
    You NTs are tricky, man. The whole crux of the argument -- the existence of choice -- is a point of departure, but your worldview is internally consistent, and so is mine, so an agreement is unlikely.
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    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
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    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    One needn't rely on science to come to the conclusion that free will is ultimately impossible. I do not necessarily believe that everything is predetermined, but I do believe that humans are not really in control of their own actions; whether it is a result of the structure of our brains, or some metaphysical concept about which I am currently unfamiliar, there must be something that governs our actions. You must realize that thoughts and desires come to you by no fault of your own, no? The only thing I do know is that people are substantively different than one another, and I cannot fairly judge another because I have not walked in his shoes.

    I am not calling for a rejection of any particular system, but simply referencing the fact that judging a system based upon its unfairness is probably not the best way to go about it, since every system is inherently unfair.
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PFZ92dMys"].[/YOUTUBE]

    sounds like this.

    that is a depressing way of seeing things

  8. #88
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    I think it is over simplistic to imply that liberals are more altruistic than conservatives. If you think about it, the rich stands to gain more by promoting selfish policies. Similarly, the poor stands to be the net beneficiary if society adopted more altruistic social policies. In that respect, I don't think liberals are necessarily any less selfish than conservatives.

    My issue with American politics is that the wealthy are very adept at convincing the unwashed masses that selfish, "every man for himself" social policies are for the benefits of the country and not just for the chosen few.

    I have equal disdain for the far left. But fortunately, they are pretty good at neutering themselves with unrealistic values which hinder their ability to acquire sufficient resources to be anything more than a nuisance.

  9. #89
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    In Germany we have liberals, conservatives and socialists and while the first ones dropped beyond 5 % votes, the latter ones form the two biggest parties. How about the psychological mindset of people if you increase the spectrum ? Aint mindsets not bond after all to the very deterministic availiability of options ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    In Germany we have liberals, conservatives and socialists and while the first ones dropped beyond 5 % votes, the latter ones form the two biggest parties. How about the psychological mindset of people if you increase the spectrum ? Aint mindsets not bond after all to the very deterministic availiability of options ?
    I thought that there was no life beyond the USA!
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