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Hoarding, when does clutter cross the line into pathological?

CrystalViolet

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http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-204_162-10008926.html?tag=page;previous

Is it me, or did any one else think this article is a bit finger wagging? I tend live in a bit of clutter, but if I'm getting to about slide five levels, it's time to really sort my stuff out. In my defense, I have a pretty intense work schedule! "Apparently" this pathological! BTW, I don't permanently live in that state....and I don't get to that state of feraldom very often, but isn't the threshold set slightly too low?
Now I'm all worried. I'm a bad house keeper! Or I've lived in shared accommodation for far too long! If you can't sit on the couch, there are issues though.
Feeling slightly judged that I don't keep things Spick and Span every day. I have a friend who vacuums every day and bleaches her washing machine every week and I think that's bordering on pathological too.

Any way curious to see y'all think...so discuss!
 

Lark

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I think about this quite a bit and am always looking for ways to dispose of stuff rather than keep it, I follow a couple of art projects or social commentators who pay attention to it too in the context of consumerism and having vs. being cultures, I have lots and lots and lots of things which I seriously wanted until I got home with them and I think that results in clutter or hoarding.

Hoarding, as in having three years supply of aspirin in case of an emergency I think is a different, personal problem and I couldnt be considered a hoarder of that variety, I'm not even half prepared for a week without electricity or essential services never mind that.
 

CrystalViolet

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I've moved around a bit, so in reality, I have big clean outs of stuff. I tend to accumulate books, and magazines ( not the trashy women's weekly stuff), DVD's....clothes, arts and craft bits and pieces. Not really a hoarder of stuff that might actually be useful, lol.
I just actually felt those pictures were more about house keeping, not stock piling obsessively. Mind you, I lived in an apartment building with a really bad cockroach problem, turns out the man in the apartment above me, was a hoarder and basically the cause of the problem. They were hauling out newspapers for days, when the land lord finally ejected him. They had to gut the place it was so festie.
 

Randomnity

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I think a lot is dependent on mindset, rather than the volume of clutter. In other words, why is the clutter happening? The person with no time vs the person who is lazy vs the person who is emotionally attached to things are all different (although there is also overlap).

As far as the slides go, 1 is perfectly normal; 2-3 are borderline; 4 is where I'd start to worry about the person's mental health (but not assume that they're a hoarder; there are other explanations for clutter); slide 6+ are ridiculous and suggest serious issues of some sort, whether "hoarding" or not. I don't see that much difference between 6 and higher, really - just the volumes are different, not the pattern of accumulation.

annnnnd apparently I was bang-on, although I'd disagree that slide 4 is evidence of "potentially serious hoarding", I'd call it more of warning signs whereas with less clutter I'd just call them messy.

(fwiw, my dad is about a 5-6 with self-confirmed "hoarding mentality" and my mom is about a slide 4 without much hoarding mentality, just easily overwhelmed/distracted and bad at organizing/prioritizing possessions. For me I'd actually be uncomfortable right away with the newspapers in slide 1, although maybe magazines or something "cleaner" would be ok. I get to slide 2 every so often which will usually trigger cleaning after a few days of it. Slide 3+ would really bug me)
 

Rail Tracer

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I've moved around a bit, so in reality, I have big clean outs of stuff. I tend to accumulate books, and magazines ( not the trashy women's weekly stuff), DVD's....clothes, arts and craft bits and pieces. Not really a hoarder of stuff that might actually be useful, lol.
I just actually felt those pictures were more about house keeping, not stock piling obsessively. Mind you, I lived in an apartment building with a really bad cockroach problem, turns out the man in the apartment above me, was a hoarder and basically the cause of the problem. They were hauling out newspapers for days, when the land lord finally ejected him. They had to gut the place it was so festie.

That was my initial thought for slide 1 and 2. For slide 4 and 5, it looked like the person just didn't want to organize. Onwards, it started looking like hoarding (but on a closer look.. it is just a mess.)

Again, the person could have organized even just a little and the person wouldn't look like he was hoarding/being messy. The clothes from slides 1-4 really didn't need to be all over the place, that person could of just thrown all those clothes in a clothes bin. The stacked newspapers could of been organized a lot better. Those newspapers could of been left in a box in the corner if he was that adamant in keeping them. Slide 5 and 6 looked more like being messy instead of hoarding. Somewhere between slides 6-8, the room starts looking like a garbage room.

Mind you, I consider my room to be organized chaos, but it usually doesn't go anywhere past slide 2 (and for the fact that I don't leave my clothes around like that.)

Over-cleaning is "pathological," under-cleaning is "pathological." Slide 4 or 5 is my limit.

I don't want to be judgmental but....
 

Randomnity

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I just actually felt those pictures were more about house keeping, not stock piling obsessively.
That's a great point actually, for the first few slides, especially with the piles of clothes and so on. It'd be easy to achieve that level of mess with a "normal" amount of belongings, without hoarding things. You just have to not put things away.
 

Such Irony

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My parents keep a house that is somewhere between the slide 4 and 5 range. I wouldn't say it's quite on the level of pathological but its definitely messy and I don't like visiting there because so much is in the way.
 

gromit

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No need to feel judged, it's just photos on the internet!

The difference between clutter and hoarding is the attitude a person has toward possessions. It's a very irrational, psychological thing, not much is understood about the underlying causes or ways to treat it. People with compulsive hoarding keep waaaay more than they need or use or even could potentially use, but with the idea that they will use it one day, or that it reminds them of something or someone, or that they will be giving it to someone. They have a tremendous difficulty making decisions, making categories or generalizations (i.e. each item is unique and cannot be interchanged, "this jar is small and has a plastic lid, this one has a wider opening and a metal lid, that one is the same size as the first one but is made of plastic, which is good because it doesn't break... I can't throw any of them away!"). With all of those possessions, they hardly get a chance to use most of the items since they are not stored in an organized or accessible manner. Everybody has pockets of clutter that last for days, weeks, sometimes months, but when those pockets join together and become permanent fixtures, that's the start of a hoard.

In very bad cases, situations can arise where appliances (stove, plumbing) break and cannot be accessed, pests invade the space and cannot be exterminated, and other health and safety risks as well, so it is something to be taken seriously.

I've been reading and learning about it for quite some time in relation to a close family member, and can point anyone who is interested to further resources in terms of information, support groups, and forums.

Feel free to PM me as well.
 

CrystalViolet

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That's a great point actually, for the first few slides, especially with the piles of clothes and so on. It'd be easy to achieve that level of mess with a "normal" amount of belongings, without hoarding things. You just have to not put things away.
If I have a long stretch of on call, that's pretty much what happens, nothing gets put away. Admittedly I tidy first chance I get, ( I don't have people over either though until things are more organized.) I have a very small place right now, and that changes perceptions some what too.
 

Randomnity

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No need to feel judged, it's just photos on the internet!

The difference between clutter and hoarding is the attitude a person has toward possessions. It's a very irrational, psychological thing, not much is understood about the underlying causes or ways to treat it. People with compulsive hoarding keep waaaay more than they need or use or even could potentially use, but with the idea that they will use it one day, or that it reminds them of something or someone, or that they will be giving it to someone. They have a tremendous difficulty making decisions, making categories or generalizations (i.e. each item is unique and cannot be interchanged, "this jar is small and has a plastic lid, this one has a wider opening and a metal lid, that one is the same size as the first one but is made of plastic, which is good because it doesn't break... I can't throw any of them away!"). With all of those possessions, they hardly get a chance to use most of the items since they are not stored in an organized or accessible manner. Everybody has pockets of clutter that last for days, weeks, sometimes months, but when those pockets join together and become permanent fixtures, that's the start of a hoard.

In very bad cases, situations can arise where appliances (stove, plumbing) break and cannot be accessed, pests invade the space and cannot be exterminated, and other health and safety risks as well, so it is something to be taken seriously.

I've been reading and learning about it for quite some time in relation to a close family member, and can point anyone who is interested to further resources in terms of information, support groups, and forums.

Feel free to PM me as well.
Great description! The snag I run into is that this interweaves with frugality - like a lot of things actually will be useful to have someday, rather than buying them again, even if they really are used rarely. Like tape, and nails, and candles. I realize that there's a "totally ok" level of keeping things in case you need them later, and an obvious "hoarding" level of keeping things around "in case" you need them later, but in between there's a big fuzzy grey area where I'm not sure where the line really is. Containers are also tricky because it's awesome to not have to buy them, but at some point collecting the empty ones does get excessive.

<---lots of space and hoarding tendencies for useful things, to the point where people make fun of me :laugh:

I guess as long as it's not having a negative effect on your life, it's probably ok.... :shrug:
 

gromit

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Great description! The snag I run into is that this interweaves with frugality - like a lot of things actually will be useful to have someday, rather than buying them again, even if they really are used rarely. Like tape, and nails, and candles. I realize that there's a "totally ok" level of keeping things in case you need them later, and an obvious "hoarding" level of keeping things around "in case" you need them later, but in between there's a big fuzzy grey area where I'm not sure where the line really is. Containers are also tricky because it's awesome to not have to buy them, but at some point collecting the empty ones does get excessive.

<---lots of space and hoarding tendencies for useful things, to the point where people make fun of me :laugh:

I guess as long as it's not having a negative effect on your life, it's probably ok.... :shrug:

Yeah I agree. I see some of those tendencies in myself (and it scares me a little bit). I’m not sure where “the line” is, but I think what you say about a negative effect on your life is probably a good way to measure just about anything. I personally would prefer to give myself some cushion on the “healthy” side of that line and will sometimes go through purges to make sure I know I’m still capable of getting rid of things (or after I’ve spent a significant amount of time at my parents’ place. I used to feel a lot of anxiety getting rid of something, because I would hear my mom saying all those different reasons I should keep it. Now I feel kind of free and happy getting rid of stuff, a lot more healthy than when I was younger. I wonder if it is the anxiety feeling of getting rid of stuff that has to do with the healthy vs unhealthy.

Healthy:
  • Knowing where things are
  • Being able to access things that you want to use
  • Being able to throw something away without causing yourself anxiety
It is sad, but in this one respect at least, I just look at what my mom is and try my best NOT to be like that.
 

gromit

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Also, I realize that I have a remarkable ability to make do with pretty much NOTHING, so that allays my fears of not having "enough" of something.
 

CrystalViolet

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Gromit,
Ha, Ha....I was kinda taking it personal. Your post made me feel better, and gave some perspective on the matter. I was curious too.
 

gromit

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Glad I could help. And I agree, it is curious, and hard to understand, even for people who experience it firsthand. The disorder does seem to be getting all kinds of media attention now, which is hopefully a good thing for research and progress and for making it less stigmatized.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I read an article not long ago (I tried to find it just now, but can’t remember where I saw it) about a guy who killed himself because he was forced to get rid of his *stuff* at a faster pace than he could handle. He lived in an apartment. When he went on vacation, the landlord got concerned about his mail piling up- and went into the apartment to check on him. He came home to find out he’d been evicted (the apartment was deemed a health hazard) and he had to get rid of everything immediately. He killed himself a week later because- he explained in a note- he didn’t know how to go on without his stuff. If I remember correctly, the exact words were “I tried but life has lost all its meaning”. His friends and neighbors said he was a kind and gentle guy, and that he jokingly referred to his *stuff* as his “identity”. He’d actually lived in fear of it being taken away from him for quite a while prior to it actually happening.

So yeah, like others have said- it isn’t just about clutter. A depressed person (or lazy or way-too-busy-to-clean or whatever) might actually feel relieved that another party came along and intervened to get rid of the clutter; but for a hoarder, the clutter is there because there’s a really strong emotional attachment to stuff and they feel an unbearable sense of ‘loss’ when they try to get rid of it. If you can manage to clean a place up when time frees up to do so- enough to where you could have guests over without batting an eye- then you’re NOT a hoarder. When you can’t have people over because there’s too much clutter- which you can’t get yourself to part with because it all feels too important no matter how much time you spend ‘trying’ to clean it- then there’s a problem.
 
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Viridian

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It's a very irrational, psychological thing, not much is understood about the underlying causes or ways to treat it. People with compulsive hoarding keep waaaay more than they need or use or even could potentially use, but with the idea that they will use it one day, or that it reminds them of something or someone, or that they will be giving it to someone.

Ha, I think that a lot; that's why I keep a lot of papers - and some nostalgic scraps - in my drawer. :blush:
 

gromit

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Here's an article I came across.

Pretty dense, a lot of info (have only got about 1/2 way through so far), but it goes into the psychology a bit, the current research: http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/051711p14.shtml

Hoarding treatment begins with a person acknowledging the underlying problems that fuel hoarding behavior. The reasons for hoarding differ depending on the person, and treatment is challenging because people who hoard often do not realize their behavior is a problem or they are socially isolated and ashamed due to the condition of their home. Sometimes, they resist treatment because they think it will involve simply clearing out the clutter.

“Just cleaning out the stuff does not address the underlying psychological issues,” Shulman says. “It’s not a clutter problem; it’s a perception/thinking problem.”
According to Steketee, no single condition causes hoarding. Contributing factors or stressors may include the following:

• being raised in a chaotic home or one with confusing family context, or moving frequently;
• cognitive processing issues that affect decision making and problem solving;
• attention-deficit disorder;
• anxiety and/or depression;
• excessive guilt about waste; and
• genetics and family history because hoarding behavior runs in families.

“Hoarding can also occur in people with dementia, schizophrenia, and obsessive-compulsive disorder [OCD],” says Steketee, “but it is not clear that the features and causes are the same.”

Currently, there is a common misperception that hoarding is caused primarily by OCD or anxiety. But although anxiety or compulsion may contribute to hoarding behavior, researchers now believe hoarding is not a type of OCD, and anxiety is not the primary driving force, Steketee explains.

For example, hoarders may experience anxiety or stress due to obsessive thoughts, such as grief over someone’s death or the loss of important things in their life, or perfectionist thinking. Hoarding helps prevent them from experiencing that anxiety or reduces the severity of it. Accumulating may be calming for the hoarder, Shulman says.

“Focusing on ‘things’ deflects the focus from the thought processes actually causing anxiety,” says Shulman.

“Hoarding may induce feelings of safety and security and/or reinforce identity,” adds Steketee.

The exact causes of hoarding are still uncertain, and research on the physiology and psychology of hoarding is ongoing. Geneticists are working to identify genetic loci related to hoarding behavior, says Steketee. An imaging study found that cerebral blood flow in a patient with OCD and severe hoarding exhibited a certain pattern during the most severe hoarding symptoms, and the pattern changed when the patient’s hoarding behaviors improved (Ohtsuchi, Matsuo, Akimoto, & Watanabe, 2010). A review of epidemiological, neurobiological, and treatment studies concluded that compulsive hoarding may be a discrete disorder with its own diagnostic criteria (Pertusa et al., 2010).
 
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