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  1. #31
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yeah apparently facts and reality mean nothing to you. Sure, different people have different ideas of happiness, but there's clearly a big difference between the kind of real contentment, satisfaction, and health that lasts...and the kind of misery that could result from excessive abuse of street drugs, some of which actually cause conditions which require psychiatric medication to be fixed...a very common one is depleting one's own seratonin.
    But then again, the question that follows is facts and reality important to someone who iqnores them?.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You may understand theoretical thinking in general, but no, you don't understand personality theory if you think your personality changes with how you feel or want to be that day.

    I'll always remember Edgar's example in one thread of the DVD player...it plays different movies, but it's always going to be a DVD player. It's not going to magically turn into a toaster one morning.
    Thats a very obscure statement on personality. How can you ascertain that a personality of a person is fixed, the assumption here is that there are fixed tendencies. You know that your brain scientifically is evolving each day and that we are constantly changing neuro-structure to new stimuli right?.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    What an INFP motive to say you're going to be that type.

    I never said it was a bad thing. I was declaring you to absolutely not be an INTP.

    As someone who is an FP myself, I'm not sure why you thought I meant it in a bad way. You're definitely Fi, not Ti.
    I've still yet to find a persuasive and clear definition of what INTP and INFP is. The first assumes that one is inclined to be rational, logically sound, and "objective"(whatever that means) and prefering a broad perspective, while the other assumes that one approaches things from how one instinctively feels about them. I dont see why these two preferences should be mutually exlusive and why she couldn't have an roughly balanced usage of processing information in either way. Either way, i dont think there is a two scale way of thinking anyway. its a flaw in MBTI that F versus T, when there also could be P and other various ways of processing things.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yeah apparently facts and reality mean nothing to you.
    Especially as it pertains to happiness, yes. Can you logically be happy?
    Sure, different people have different ideas of happiness, but there's clearly a big difference between the kind of real contentment, satisfaction, and health that lasts...and the kind of misery that could result from excessive abuse of street drugs,
    You keep on changing your perspective. The word to use would have been "happiness". If you would have used the word "happiness", I would have replied "How can you objectively prove that?" the answer to which is "You can't". But since you compare "happiness" to "misery" you expose your bias.

    You may understand theoretical thinking in general, but no, you don't understand personality theory if you think your personality changes with how you feel or want to be that day.

    I'll always remember Edgar's example in one thread of the DVD player...it plays different movies, but it's always going to be a DVD player. It's not going to magically turn into a toaster one morning.
    My personality according to the MBTI changes based on how I want to interpret myself at that particular point in time. Personality, probably more than anything, is so subjective that believing with any certainty that you are "in fact" one type is almost insane. Theoretically speaking two people could be the same in every aspect of their being and if they both perceive themselves as being different from one another, they would necessarily classify themselves as different, despite being the same. How, then, can a person believe he is intp when he could quite easily be infp, unbeknownst to him?

    Under your analogy, if my personality is a dvd player, mbti is nothing but a movie. I can choose to play different scenes (intp, infp etc etc) in this movie, or I can choose to pop in a different movie altogether (zodiac, enneagram etc etc). The real question isn't so much "what movie am I watching?" as opposed to "which movie shall I watch now?" (or, and this one I have no answer to, "What happens when I choose to not watch anything?")


    I was declaring you to absolutely not be an INTP.

    As someone who is an FP myself, I'm not sure why you thought I meant it in a bad way. You're definitely Fi, not Ti.
    My infp side agrees with you..my intp side thinks both of us are idiots...nothing new...

    My dvd player doesn't think we disagree on too much. Essentially we are doing the same thing; playing movies. However I'm like bluray, and you're more HDDVD. (lol)

    Just joking, of course...or not?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    My personality according to the MBTI changes based on how I want to interpret myself at that particular point in time. Personality, probably more than anything, is so subjective that believing with any certainty that you are "in fact" one type is almost insane.

    Theoretically speaking two people could be the same in every aspect of their being and if they both perceive themselves as being different from one another, they would necessarily classify themselves as different, despite being the same. How, then, can a person believe he is intp when he could quite easily be infp, unbeknownst to him?

    Under your analogy, if my personality is a dvd player, mbti is nothing but a movie. I can choose to play different scenes (intp, infp etc etc) in this movie, or I can choose to pop in a different movie altogether (zodiac, enneagram etc etc). The real question isn't so much "what movie am I watching?" as opposed to "which movie shall I watch now?" (or, and this one I have no answer to, "What happens when I choose to not watch anything?")
    No you didn't get the analogy. Your cognition is a DVD player, and whether you're 12 or 22, happy or sad, going to work or just hanging out, your dominant cognition will remain the same, unless you suffer from severe brain damage or are suddenly struck with a severe case of psychosis or something. It would take a great deal of trauma, either physically or psychologically, to go from Fi (which is your dom function, bro) to Ti (your least used function).

    Nothing else you said it worth responding to. Have a nice day, INFP.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    But then again, the question that follows is facts and reality important to someone who iqnores them?.
    No.

    Thats a very obscure statement on personality. How can you ascertain that a personality of a person is fixed, the assumption here is that there are fixed tendencies. You know that your brain scientifically is evolving each day and that we are constantly changing neuro-structure to new stimuli right?.

    I've still yet to find a persuasive and clear definition of what INTP and INFP is. The first assumes that one is inclined to be rational, logically sound, and "objective"(whatever that means) and prefering a broad perspective, while the other assumes that one approaches things from how one instinctively feels about them. I dont see why these two preferences should be mutually exlusive and why she couldn't have an roughly balanced usage of processing information in either way. Either way, i dont think there is a two scale way of thinking anyway. its a flaw in MBTI that F versus T, when there also could be P and other various ways of processing things.
    It's because I don't look at it as a simple F vs. T thing. It really isn't. It is about cognition: Fi vs. Ti, which are conflicting functions. When a strong Fi user (an FP) leans more toward Thinking it's because they're developing or have developed Te.

  5. #35
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's because I don't look at it as a simple F vs. T thing. It really isn't. It is about cognition: Fi vs. Ti, which are conflicting functions. When a strong Fi user (an FP) leans more toward Thinking it's because they're developing or have developed Te.
    I am going to take up a difficult position and argue that Ti and Fi have more in common then Ti and Te when it comes to processing information, by the fact that they both draw from an internal processing source, the only difference is what they concentrate on. They are anything but contradictory.

    The main difference between Ti and Fi is just how these two functions have a preference to filtering information. Fi will look for personal meaning in information while Ti tries to establish personal understanding of information. Fi-users will try to draw conclusions based on their personal values while Ti will draw conclusions based on how it internally understands the logical relationships inside a context.

    Te-users however who will be inclined to be empirical, they will always first and foremost rely on external "Objective" criteria, and externally measureable and testable information, to orient themselves within and establish knowledge and their understanding of logical contexts and argumentive premises, hence why facts and reliability of information are always given priority, which is completely different from the experiental holistic understanding that Ti users try to establish in their learning process, which tries to cover and link every single concievable bit within a subject.

    Hence why you see a shitload of Te users being scholars and scientists of the positivist tradition, while theorists are commonly Ti.

    So in this case i would actually argue that Fi if anything is more similar to Ti, and if used to explore logical relationships, analysis and objective understanding would look and function not too differently from Ti.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    I am going to take up a difficult position and argue that Ti and Fi have more in common then Ti and Te when it comes to processing information, by the fact that they both draw from an internal processing source, the only difference is what they concentrate on. They are anything but contradictory.

    The main difference between Ti and Fi is just how these two functions have a preference to filtering information. Fi will look for personal meaning in information while Ti tries to establish personal understanding of information. Fi-users will try to draw conclusions based on their personal values while Ti will draw conclusions based on how it internally understands the logical relationships inside a context.

    Te-users however who will be inclined to be empirical, they will always first and foremost rely on external "Objective" criteria, and externally measureable and testable information, to orient themselves within and establish knowledge and their understanding of logical contexts and argumentive premises, hence why facts and reliability of information are always given priority, which is completely different from the experiental holistic understanding that Ti users try to establish in their learning process, which tries to cover and link every single concievable bit within a subject.

    Hence why you see a shitload of Te users being scholars and scientists of the positivist tradition, while theorists are commonly Ti.

    So in this case i would actually argue that Fi if anything is more similar to Ti, and if used to explore logical relationships, analysis and objective understanding would look and function not too differently from Ti.
    Ti and Fi can look a little more similar in terms of being subjective and preferring "depth" over "breadth" and preferring to check things internally. So in that way, yes they can appear more similar. And that's exactly why they clash.

    People who prefer an internal ethical system tend to want to check logic externally, and vice versa, and I honestly think the judging functions are one of the easiest things to figure out (at least it was for myself) because it is so obvious to me that facts and logic are external, and ethics come from within (where as an Fe/Ti user would strongly think the opposite made more sense, or was more effective).

    Ti and Fi come from a similar part in the mind, and one is rejected while the other is accepted. One is the shadow of the other.

    Ti is like my worst function, but people say they see Te in me all of the time, and I'm absolutely an Fi type.

    I see Ti/Fi clashing all the time, as well as Te thinking Fe is trying to get in its way.

  7. #37
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    I think what Victor is referring to is called 'mindfulness'.
    It can be accessed through meditation, it's true. But it can also be achieved anywhere, anytime, with practice. It's about letting your senses take pleasure in the moment rather than losing it in the constant stream of the monkey mind, with it's non-stop woulda-coulda-shoulda thoughts and hypervigilence that churn in your mind.
    All drugs short change this becuase you can't be completely present when effected by them.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    No you didn't get the analogy. Your cognition is a DVD player, and whether you're 12 or 22, happy or sad, going to work or just hanging out, your dominant cognition will remain the same, unless you suffer from severe brain damage or are suddenly struck with a severe case of psychosis or something. It would take a great deal of trauma, either physically or psychologically, to go from Fi (which is your dom function, bro) to Ti (your least used function).

    Nothing else you said it worth responding to. Have a nice day, INFP.
    Are you saying people don't change? I honestly can't relate too well with my childhood self. Ironically, my type hasn't changed, but the way I perceive myself as being, fundamentally, has.

    Oh, and I aint your bro..but nice try.

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