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  1. #41
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    More traditional pack theory typically defines:

    Alpha = Leader
    Beta = Follower/Pack Member
    Omega = Outsider/Untouchable/Floormat

    - What seems to be getting called "Omega" in this thread is closer to the Lone Wolf. They *could* have been an Omega. Or they could have been an Alpha. Or they could have simply never fit into or understood normal pack dynamics. Or any other number of things that makes them shun packs.

    However, I've had similar conversations around these pack dynamics (and women are not immune - they just play the alpha/beta game a little different. Less direct aggression, more subversive manipulations. Women are stereotypically the more social/feeling of the sexes, after all.)

    What I've come to is that yes, everybody has a "comfort" role. The role they're most likely to fall into. But alpha tends to play into a pecking order, and all but one of the comfortable alphas will be forced into a beta role. This is why they need to be adaptable. Almost nobody can be alpha *all* of the time.

    Betas are the ones who look for leadership. They want to be part of a bigger whole. But they don't want to - or can't - steer the ship, themselves.

    Omegas are the ones who are so *desperate* to belong that they will do anything to please. To the point of obsequious self sacrifice (think of the wolf who eats last, in the pack. Or the guy who spends his life savings trying to impress somebody... only to be shunned, anyway.)

    And lone wolfs are just that. I think most lone wolfs are in fact alphas who could not accept being a beta in their packs. I certainly was, when I was a solo act.
    If less is more, then none is most.

    My entire life is a long tail.

  2. #42
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    How's that? You don't think that alpha males potentially are so secure in their dominance that they don't have to go around attempting to exert it at every turn? Like overbearing frat boys and petty tyrants could acutally be betas with a complex?
    That's just not how alphas work in any species where the word alpha is typically applied, so I think it would be stupid to use the word in that sense for humans. Why not come up with a different word?

    This really isn't a scientific issue. This is a matter of semantics. It would be less confusing if you just used a different and more appropriate term to convey that meaning.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's just not how alphas work in any species where the word alpha is typically applied, so I think it would be stupid to use the word in that sense for humans. Why not come up with a different word?

    This really isn't a scientific issue. This is a matter of semantics. It would be less confusing if you just used a different and more appropriate term to convey that meaning.
    What a terribly INTP thing to say!

  4. #44
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    Besides, wrapping your mind around a males way of thinking isn't too hard. Women on the other hand...yeah, PMS must be a bitch..because they have periods of pure insanity..but don't get me started on women..
    [YOUTUBE="www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zb-XyXP4hk"][/YOUTUBE]
    How the hell do you analyze that?
    imagine,
    for approximately 1-3 days:

    a) you have a headache
    b) your body feels "heavy"
    c) your stomach is bloated
    d) you have to pee more frequently
    e) you get occasional stabbing deep abdominal pains
    f) sometimes so badly all you can do is curl up, take prescription pain meds, and watch tv
    g) and/or you have a dull, persistent lower-belly ache that makes everything uncomfortable
    h) your body is especially sensitive to certain sensations
    i) you get sudden cravings for weird food
    j) you may have all these symptoms, some of them, more of them, or they may come and go
    k) come and go on an hourly, weekly, monthly, yearly, or longer basis
    m) to top it all off, you know that you are soon going to begin bleeding out of one of your lower orifaces for a week

    now imagine everyone expects you to function completely normally and not "bitch about it".

    and now imagine that if you do not function normally, or if you do complain about it, the opposite sex treats you as if you "lack logic" and "are crazy" and are otherwise inferior. and then there are some very lucky women who experience nothing, and men point to them as examples of why PMS "isn't real" or is "exaggerated". even those lucky women themselves do not always believe in it. seriously, my dad - a doctor - didn't really believe in PMS until one day i was curled up on the couch crying. my pain tolerance is pretty damn high, and he knew it. he's been gentle and understanding about it ever since, which i appreciate very much.

    i'm really not trying to be an ass, i mean this seriously. this is how it feels to be PMSing and then to have men treat you like a pariah. just act as if the woman is physically ill for those days (because, essentially, many of us are), and you'll be steps ahead of many, many men.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    imagine,
    for approximately 1-3 days:

    a) you have a headache
    b) your body feels "heavy"
    c) your stomach is bloated
    d) you have to pee more frequently
    e) you get occasional stabbing deep abdominal pains
    f) sometimes so badly all you can do is curl up, take prescription pain meds, and watch tv
    g) and/or you have a dull, persistent lower-belly ache that makes everything uncomfortable
    h) your body is especially sensitive to certain sensations
    i) you get sudden cravings for weird food
    j) you may have all these symptoms, some of them, more of them, or they may come and go
    k) you start anticipating bleeding out of one of your lower orifaces for a week

    now imagine everyone to expect you to function completely normally.

    and now imagine that if you do not function normally, the opposite sex treats you as if you "lack logic" and "are crazy" and are otherwise inferior. and then there are some lucky bitches who experience nothing, and men point to them as examples of why PMS "isn't real" or is "exaggerated". seriously, my dad - a doctor - didn't really believe in PMS until one day i was curled up on the couch crying. my pain tolerance is pretty damn high, and he knew it. he's been gentle and understanding about it ever since, which i appreciate very much.

    i'm really not trying to be an ass, i mean this seriously. this is how it feels to be PMSing and then to have men treat you like a pariah. just act as if the woman is physically ill for those days (because, essentially, many of us are), and you'll be steps ahead of many, many men.
    +111100000000

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    TG said once that true alphas don't always have to run around trying to prove it, which actually does correlate to the OPs ideas of alphas being able to role shift appropriately.
    Actually our theories are quite different. Most of what the OP describes as Alpha, I put into the Beta A category. Magic hates my idea because he is a Beta B. The beta who becomes indifferent and removed while still maintaining some sense of self worth (he is smrt).

    The thing about animistic comparisons of people is that it isn't taking into account cognitive value, it isn't meant to. It is an observation of the natural instinctual motivations of humans in their most basic and underlying form. Which as in any other living creature, does exist, no matter how much you don't want it to.

  7. #47
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Humans aren't wolves, so these categories are bound to be objected to. Plus, people seem to play different social roles in different settings.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #48
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    Right, but it is beyond "attitude". I have never in my life, seen a true alpha act like an omega, or beta. I've seen them bend, compromise, even get emotional, but never NOT alpha. And, certainly not to gain resources.

  9. #49
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    The theory about alphas, betas and omegas, doesn't bother me. I agree that these three stereotypes exist within human beings, as it relates to their most base nature and that they can flex in and out of roles when survival depends on it.

    What I don't agree with is that this is solely applicable to men. It's pretty obvious which ones are which, regardless of gender, if you observe people for any length of time. No matter how hard someone tries, their base nature will manifest more often than not, displaying an observable pattern of preferred behaviour.

    And I agree with TG that the alpha behaviour described in the opening post, isn't alpha A behaviour. But I disagree that alpha A's smell like cookies!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    But I disagree that alpha A's smell like cookies!
    Lol! If you're ever in Cali I will devise a plan for you to smell my ex.

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