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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think we see their actions and dont understand it. We then, assuming they are just like us, ignoring how every different people can be, look into our darker selves to try and come up with a rationale for their actions. The result is a conclusion that is totally bonkers regarding the other person's motives. We then label them with negative judgments based upon our erroneous conclusion, based upon the erroneous assumption of simularity.
    How about idealization? We don't understand the person, so we project the best possible version of ourselves on them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    The fox IS a failure. He failed to complete his objective. He failed to complete his objective because it was impossible for him to achieve in the first place. Due to inexperience or distraction by lusting after those grapes, he forgot to ask himself: can I do this? How high CAN I jump?

    If he pretends that he doesn't want the grapes then next time he might not believe his eyes. If he tells himself he's a lousy jumper then next time he might not jump. Both are bad outcomes.

    But let's couple each outcome with another trait: looking for a solution.
    If the fox tells himself he has bad eyes, then he might decide to train his eyes. But that won't help a thing: his eyes are fine! His vision very well may improve, but he won't gather any more grapes.

    If the fox tells himself he's a lousy jumper, then he might decide to train his legs. And that will help! He'll be able to jump higher, and the problem is solved.

    You can't purposefully pursue change or improvement without knowing what you need to improve.

    Furthermore, instead of making declarative statements such as "I'm a lousy jumper" that only make sense in a comparitive mindset (a lousy jumper compared to who?), it would be best he learn how high he CAN jump (measure it, test it) and use that as a reasonable guideline for improvement.

    Then optimism and pessimism drop out of the equation. It doesn't matter if the glass is half full or half empty, only if there is enough in the glass to do the job.
    If the fox trained himself for a few months to get the grapes, I'd say he's obsessed. And it would be ineffective too. Building the muscle would take so much energy that it's not worth the nutritional value of the grapes. Well, maybe they were just luxury for him and he had the time. Anyways, it would be more efficient solution to just change his attitude to such that he could get the grapes off his mind.

    And even if the fox trained, there would be optimism or pessimism to the possibility to train as much as needed to jump that much higher. The optimism would be a factor in other ways too. He would think that in the future he will come across grapes and he will need to jump higher. Or he thinks that these grapes will be in the tree when he is strong enough to get up there. I don't think there is any way of removing optimism and pessimism from the picture.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    If the fox trained himself for a few months to get the grapes, I'd say he's obsessed. And it would be ineffective too. Building the muscle would take so much energy that it's not worth the nutritional value of the grapes.
    Let's hope he's familiar with the concept of opportunity cost. A clever fox.

    Well, maybe they were just luxury for him and he had the time. Anyways, it would be more efficient solution to just change his attitude to such that he could get the grapes off his mind.
    Does he really have to delude himself to do this? While his failure to get what he wants can be damaging to his psyche, there can be value to be learned from it.

    Any person subjected to repeated failures will start to doubt themselves but persons of characters will find a way to learn from the situation and move on. They don't need to contradict themselves to do so. That temporary self-doubt can be a drop in the bucket when compared to their own sense of self-respect and commitment to their values.

    Perhaps just another way to protect the ego, but one that ultimately forces (directed) development.

    And even if the fox trained, there would be optimism or pessimism to the possibility to train as much as needed to jump that much higher. The optimism would be a factor in other ways too. He would think that in the future he will come across grapes and he will need to jump higher. Or he thinks that these grapes will be in the tree when he is strong enough to get up there. I don't think there is any way of removing optimism and pessimism from the picture.
    It's true, what you get out of things can be a crap shoot. Sometimes the best you can do is make educated guesses and be optimistic that they are accurate. You can eliminate a lot of the guesswork (and the need for rose or stone gray glasses) through careful observation and attempting to quantify what you can.

    A positive attitude (or a skeptical one) has to be used to do the rest. So yes, you can't remove it from the picture entirely. But it doesn't have to be your sole decision making vehicle, either.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    You might have noticed how I keep mentioning "directed" and "purposeful" development. This is because, as is the case with the "unemployed turned rebel", their organized force WILL produce change. What will it produce? Who knows? You can make educated guesses here, but they will be less predictable than what you might expect had they found a direct way to enter the labor market.

    Not to say that unpredictable changes are bad, persay. A lot has come from accidents and apparently random events.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Does he really have to delude himself to do this? While his failure to get what he wants can be damaging to his psyche, there can be value to be learned from it.

    Any person subjected to repeated failures will start to doubt themselves but persons of characters will find a way to learn from the situation and move on. They don't need to contradict themselves to do so. That temporary self-doubt can be a drop in the bucket when compared to their own sense of self-respect and commitment to their values.
    I don't think he needs to delude himself. But if he does, that can be taken into his personality. If he just thinks "Oh well, I didn't get the grapes, but there will be other grape trees in the future. That's life" is still defines him as someone who doesn't try as much as the fox that started bodybuilding. In any of these cases, the decision of the fox has defined him.

    It's a good point that it can be a drop in the bucket. I think if this inertia of the personality is combined with the idea of fluidity, we can get pretty close to the idea I was thinking about in the OP. It's like, every decision you make will effect what your personality is, but the decisions you are making now are the result of the personality up to that point. So, while you theoretically COULD redefine yourself to a great degree, it isn't that straightforward since you have your personal history that you are repeating. So, if I now could clean all my history, would it be possible to start from scratch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    It's true, what you get out of things can be a crap shoot. Sometimes the best you can do is make educated guesses and be optimistic that they are accurate. You can eliminate a lot of the guesswork (and the need for rose or stone gray glasses) through careful observation and attempting to quantify what you can.

    A positive attitude (or a skeptical one) has to be used to do the rest. So yes, you can't remove it from the picture entirely. But it doesn't have to be your sole decision making vehicle, either.
    The difficulty is that you don't know whether the glasses are rosy or gray. I've noticed that people tend to pick the data that holds up their view.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    You might have noticed how I keep mentioning "directed" and "purposeful" development. This is because, as is the case with the "unemployed turned rebel", their organized force WILL produce change. What will it produce? Who knows? You can make educated guesses here, but they will be less predictable than what you might expect had they found a direct way to enter the labor market.
    Yeah, I'm sure it will have an impact. This is kinda sidelining the subject, but anyways, I wondered if many popular ideologies are born this way. There is a structural fault in the system (like this unemployment of the youth due to ageism) and this is translated into the common consciousness of the people, and they bring up ideologies and thoughts that change the way the society is seen. For example, my generation is the first to not get more than their parents got (which was a trend so far) and in response to this there are ideologies like vegetarianism and downshifting coming up. So, people are changing their ideological basis in order to adjust to the global condition of the future.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    The list is pretty good.



    But it isn't all you. You are part of a huge interconnected social network, and there are many things that really just happen with or without you. Isn't it hard to consider all of the hard knocks your own fault?
    I am not saying to consider all the hard knocks your own fault. Far from it. I am saying you won't know if it is your fault unless you examine yourself first, fix what you can, do all you can do, then remove that from the equation. I know a lot of people who are quick to blame anything/one else if it doesn't go their way the first time.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I am not saying to consider all the hard knocks your own fault. Far from it. I am saying you won't know if it is your fault unless you examine yourself first, fix what you can, do all you can do, then remove that from the equation. I know a lot of people who are quick to blame anything/one else if it doesn't go their way the first time.
    Yeah, there are many people like that. It seems like overreaction to either way is bad. In many cases it is quite hard to know where the problem is. Like in the case of these young unemployed, there's so many of them that it really can't be all their fault, but if you are one of them, then it might be hard to know that you are actually among a large group that has been dismissed. So, some of them might actually blame themselves and try to be everything they think is expected of them. And then, if they managed to change their personality to whatever the image of a perfect worker is, and still weren't hired. It's another dead end there.

  8. #28
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    Self Deception

    Science has shown we are all prone to self deception. And the perfect example of self deception is MBTI. And this site is just overflowing with self deception and MBTI. And the amazing thing is that no one shows the slightest embarrassment at gross self deception.

    Why is this?

    It is because MBTI is done in a group so we don't just have individual self deception, we have group deception. And it is an immensely powerful and profitable group deception practised by business and the military.

    MBTI appeals to the worst in us. It appeals to ingorance, and particulrly ignorance of science and history. It appeals to all our psychological defences. It appeals to our need to belong.

    MBTI does not appeal to our intellectual integrity, it does not appeal to our moral integrity. It unashamedly appeals to our love of power. It has not the slightest intention of limiting power.

    And when you call them, they say they don't take it seriously and it is all just a joke.

    At whose expense?

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Well, obviously the opposite side will do the same thing. Very few people vote for "the greater good" instead of their own good.
    People rarely vote for their own good, either. They vote based upon misinformation, propaganda, and delusions marketed to them by politicians and corporations.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    This reminds me of a tactic I see quite often (and use it myself too): There are many stories here on this site about hard periods of time when the person was in a situation they really didn't want to be in, and as they talk about it later on, they use it as a defining moment. They say they wouldn't be the person they are now if that hardship didn't happen. This is true of course, but I think it still falls into the topic. If they hadn't gone through the hard period, who knows, they might have won a billion dollars in the lottery? But of course an optimistic person wouldn't think so. And optimistic person thinks that the path they are on now is THE path, and among the best paths they can imagine.
    Claiming a period of trials as a defining moment is more convincing when one can identify specifically what one learned from the experience.

    The honest way to be able to say you didn't really want the grapes is to remain detached from the outcome from the outset. Then, what happens happens, you deal with it, and move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    But it isn't all you. You are part of a huge interconnected social network, and there are many things that really just happen with or without you. Isn't it hard to consider all of the hard knocks your own fault?
    No, because even when something happens that is out of my control, I can control how I react to it, or even how prepared for that possibility I was to begin with. It's just seeing an internal locus of control, rather than an external one.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    If the fox trained himself for a few months to get the grapes, I'd say he's obsessed. And it would be ineffective too. Building the muscle would take so much energy that it's not worth the nutritional value of the grapes. Well, maybe they were just luxury for him and he had the time. Anyways, it would be more efficient solution to just change his attitude to such that he could get the grapes off his mind.
    You are on the right track here, but the attitude change requires more than just getting the grapes off the fox's mind. Rather than refining his methods (improve his jumping), the fox should refine his goals (why go after grapes all the way up there, when it's far easier to get carrots and blueberries from Mr McGregor's garden!) See the broader goal -- tasty food -- and work smarter, not harder.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #30
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    Devaluing what you can't attain or become is something I see a lot of people do, and I find it quite irritating. My father is one of the worst people I know for this. He is quite unhealthy, has never been able to keep a job or finish a degree or maintain a romantic relationship, and so has decided all of those things are for poor blind suckers who lack his wisdom and insight. He declares that he doesn't "respect" degrees, or most well-respected occupations, or non-profit organizations, and thinks his failures are a result of being extremely intelligent and able to see things that others cannot. Once at a family dinner someone told me she admired my dedication in university, and he started rambling on about how people who drop out of university are the interesting and original thinkers and those who stay in are mindless drones or something (naturally he had been to university and dropped out). After he divorced my mother, he started telling anyone who would listen that marriage was bullshit, and people only got married because society told them to and they didn't think for themselves. After he had a few 'living-together-but-not-married' relationships, he decided that monogamy and cohabitation were also bullshit, and couples would not attempt to live together or be monogamous if they understood true human nature, and the only reason they did was because society told them to and they did not think for themselves.

    I've done it myself, more so when I was younger and very socially anxious and isolated. I often thought of others my age as shallow, annoying airheads. I'd see them giggling with their friends (I didn't have any) or carrying on about how much fun they'd had on the weekend or at some school activity (I never did anything on weekends or after school), and I'd feel superior to them, like I had so much more intelligence and depth, and I was too special for them. I never voiced any of these thoughts, and I from the outside I must have seemed so shy and anxious and pitiful. And I was, but I was also ridiculously full of myself in a way. (I've heard of the terms 'shy narcissist' and 'covert narcissist', and thought they would have fit me pretty well back then).

    As I've gotten older though, I seem to have gone in the opposite direction. I hold myself responsible when people don't seem to like me or my plans don't work out; perhaps even too much. I think I've spent so much time observing my father and seeing how helpless his attitude really made him...I mean, it often prevents him from feeling badly about himself, but at the same time it prevents him from doing anything to improve himself or his situation. Why would he, if he thinks it's all the world's fault and not his own? And the same would be true for me. I just feel this need now, to keep looking at myself and questioning what I'm doing wrong, because I'm the only person I can control. My thinking and behaviour is the only thing I can change. If I just insist nothing is my fault, that I'm perfect and the world is fucked up, then I'm throwing that opportunity away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Reminds me of an old fable.

    A hungry fox sees some big juicy grapes hanging from a vine. Immediately desirous of them, he jumps and jumps and jumps but can't reach the grapes, not even to get a nibble. Eventually, panting and exhausted, the fox gives up and trots off.

    As he's walking away, he says, "I didn't want those grapes, they were probably sour."

    Moral: Be honest with yourself about your intentions, even if you don't meet your goals.
    Yes, that's where the "sour grapes" expression comes from! It's often misused, just to mean a bitter attitude. Normally I don't care when worlds or expressions change meaning, it happens in language, but I really like that story and message, so I sometimes go 'ugh' when I hear someone using it just to describe bitterness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    This reminds me of when I was briefly a Psychology student at college. We talked about how people who join frats will endure humiliating circumstances because they value the end result so much, that they will put up with the means to get there. I am not wording this very well, but hopefully the gist of what I mean is coming through.
    I recall a study from one of my psych classes (wasn't a psych major, but I took a few electives) about how people would highly value their fraternity membership as a result of enduring the humiliation. They'd decide their frat was totally awesome and worth it to justify what they went through. Is that the one you're talking about? That's somewhat different from the other examples, but it is a type of ego-protecting thing, as people want to think they made the right decision and their dedication was worth it.

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