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  1. #31
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    To be honest, understanding how you feel on this issue was a huge turning point for me in how I intereact with INFJs. (Not that all INFJs are absolute on this, but it is a trend of sorts)

    I often start talking in mid senstence and then just stop....never finishing the sentance. It isnt uncommon for my sentances to be somewhat jumbled and incoherent or to have the word order all mixed up. I can speak to a large group and appear to be incredibly fluid and coherent, but I often mangle 1 on 1 conversation. When with another groups of enfps, we all seem to be doing it to some extent-almost like we leave out a lot of words, because we can figure out what the other person was going to say next anyways, so they were not needed.

    A HUGE issue, is that I need to speak (or write or externalize) my ideas in some way-if I dont do so, it is hard to make them coherent. This means that I will tend to talk about very nebulous ideas in a very enthusiastic concrete way, they change them five seconds later to a new version.

    My beloved entp best friend says that enfps are "always right" as we just keep updating the idea based on the most recent info we have....she says "but how do you know its right when you were wrong five minutes ago with the other idea? Doesnt that worry you?" Not in the slightest. I dont know why, but it doesnt matter if I am right or wrong on an idea-I have almost no attachment to being correct. As long as the idea is correlated and based upon the information that I understand to be true, I am not ill at ease by the fact that there may be unknown information or logical inconsistencies in the idea, as you'll never know everything...the idea is outside of me and is an evergrowing, ever extending matrix that will never be perfect but will be close enough to be useful from time to time. I just sort of hop from point to point on it, modifying my understanding of the problem at hand as I go to find the best solution?

    So, realizing this drives INFJs and ENTPs insane, I have tried to make a few changes in how I communicate:

    1. internalize ideas rather than talk about them
    2. confide ideas to someone close who can help me brainstorm and find flaws
    3. be certain the ideas I share with the entp/infj are pretty solid and actionable
    4. Cushion my entire speech pattern with possibilities. "This might be a possible course of action we could consider" rather than "This is what needs to be done"

    In the Nardi book, Nueroscience of personality, he notes that Ni doms both use a part of the brain that is called Precise speech. I most certainly dont use this part of my brain I suspect if you looked in that region, it'd look like this:



    Ah-wrt to OP, for an FP, I suspect learning to curb our tongues when we become frustrated is a lesson that takes time and maturity. However curbing ideas or expressions of genuine, if unflitered/unprocessed, emotion is actually a bit like being rejected. One of the most uertful things my ISTP ever said was "are you still talking?" So I stopped sharing my ideas and emotions with him....for the next ten years. I knew he couldnt be trusted to listen
    Thanks for this!

    I don't think I'm bothered if people's words tumble out willy nilly...mine do that sometimes! It's really the "sounding very definitive while still just tossing round ideas" thing that gets me - like, about life decisions, commitments involving others, etc. And I think it's very much an extrovert thing too.

    I probably sound even more rigid on this than I am. It is seldom that I would call someone out on it, for instance. Unfortunately, if I DO get to the point of calling someone out, I've probably reached a massive level of frustration over the whole issue and it has actually occurred many times.

    I appreciate what you've said about steps you've made to modify your communication style. And honestly, this is something everyone should be prepared to do. If it bothers me that much, instead of just getting massively frustrated, I should look at finding different ways to explore topics, or just not take everything they say as gospel just because that happens to be more my communication style...etc. Types and just PEOPLE have to meet each other halfway.

    I think that just saying "I'm thinking about this" instead of "I am about to do this, it is a done deal" can make a big difference. I mean, who am I kidding? I'm an anxious Ni-driven type 6! If I'm with someone who doesn't mind me venting/thinking aloud, I can throw around possibilities about courses of action, about why others do the things they do, etc etc all day long. But the only (few) times in my life when I can remember saying "I AM DOING THIS. IT IS A DONE DEAL" and then I didn't do it...I was in a state of high emotional turmoil and wanted to find some resolution though my feelings hadn't settled down. So in my case it was yet another indicator that it's a good idea for feelings to settle down before you make those definitive statements - or take definitive actions, as well.

    I hear what you say too about feeling rejected if you're sharing "unfiltered emotion." I do think everyone should be able to do that without being judged or tuned out. With one or two people I know well, like my probable ENFP friend, there have been problems in the past over her making definite statements and then me feeling let down. At least one situation arose around this where I felt I'd been lied to, or at least she was less than honest and a bit manipulative, and that obviously caused strain. However, I have a better idea now because I know her quite well (though I still can't always be sure) of when she is venting/feeling something in the moment that will change, and when it is a more long-term conviction or decision.

    However, I wouldn't have thought ENTPs would be so bothered by this sort of thing? Would they not be more like ENFPs in that respect? It would surprise me if the same things bothered ENTPs and INFJs in regard to communication styles, etc. Maybe this is just your ENTP?
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  2. #32
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Brainstoming is a great thing, and what you said here:

    A HUGE issue, is that I need to speak (or write or externalize) my ideas in some way-if I dont do so, it is hard to make them coherent. This means that I will tend to talk about very nebulous ideas in a very enthusiastic concrete way, they change them five seconds later to a new version.
    is me too 100%.

    Think what I meant in the op is more in the direction of emotional manipulation thru speaking. Like you twist and turn words the way you need them to make your partner in discussion feel a certain way. I am not sure about that tho, just read the op for the first time basically and didnt understand it :/.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #33
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Brainstoming is a great thing, and what you said here:



    is me too 100%.

    Think what I meant in the op is more in the direction of emotional manipulation thru speaking. Like you twist and turn words the way you need them to make your partner in discussion feel a certain way. I am not sure about that tho, just read the op for the first time basically and didnt understand it :/.
    Although you wrote it yourself? You were brainstorming when you wrote it?
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  4. #34
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    No, but since I have that new job I remember shit. Always already happy when I know what I did yesterday. Working from 8 - 8 running from appointment to appointment ... I am happy when university starts again and I can go study and have my peace :/
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #35
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    No, but since I have that new job I remember shit. Always already happy when I know what I did yesterday. Working from 8 - 8 running from appointment to appointment ... I am happy when university starts again and I can go study and have my peace :/
    Oh man, yes, lack of sleep is not so good for memory. And I do kind of know the feeling of reading something I wrote long ago on a forum and being like "huh? I wrote that? What was I on about?"
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Turtledove's Avatar
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    Make sure mind is in gear before mouth is engaged.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Thanks for this!

    I don't think I'm bothered if people's words tumble out willy nilly...mine do that sometimes! It's really the "sounding very definitive while still just tossing round ideas" thing that gets me - like, about life decisions, commitments involving others, etc. And I think it's very much an extrovert thing too.

    I probably sound even more rigid on this than I am. It is seldom that I would call someone out on it, for instance. Unfortunately, if I DO get to the point of calling someone out, I've probably reached a massive level of frustration over the whole issue and it has actually occurred many times.

    I appreciate what you've said about steps you've made to modify your communication style. And honestly, this is something everyone should be prepared to do. If it bothers me that much, instead of just getting massively frustrated, I should look at finding different ways to explore topics, or just not take everything they say as gospel just because that happens to be more my communication style...etc. Types and just PEOPLE have to meet each other halfway.

    I think that just saying "I'm thinking about this" instead of "I am about to do this, it is a done deal" can make a big difference. I mean, who am I kidding? I'm an anxious Ni-driven type 6! If I'm with someone who doesn't mind me venting/thinking aloud, I can throw around possibilities about courses of action, about why others do the things they do, etc etc all day long. But the only (few) times in my life when I can remember saying "I AM DOING THIS. IT IS A DONE DEAL" and then I didn't do it...I was in a state of high emotional turmoil and wanted to find some resolution though my feelings hadn't settled down. So in my case it was yet another indicator that it's a good idea for feelings to settle down before you make those definitive statements - or take definitive actions, as well.

    I hear what you say too about feeling rejected if you're sharing "unfiltered emotion." I do think everyone should be able to do that without being judged or tuned out. With one or two people I know well, like my probable ENFP friend, there have been problems in the past over her making definite statements and then me feeling let down. At least one situation arose around this where I felt I'd been lied to, or at least she was less than honest and a bit manipulative, and that obviously caused strain. However, I have a better idea now because I know her quite well (though I still can't always be sure) of when she is venting/feeling something in the moment that will change, and when it is a more long-term conviction or decision.
    silk road you are always so affirming and thoughtful in your replies.

    I think your enfp-when displaying the absolutes-was showing a negative aspect of how we can use Te as a defesnive front in the moment. This is a bit embarrassing, but I did something like this last christmas. My family was causing drama. I got so mad at all of them, as they placed me in the middle of thier drama, in the middle of people I cared for who, with no way to defuse all of thier frustrated angst, that I left and declared to my INTJ "I WILL NEVER CELBRATE CHRISTMAS AGAIN. It is a stupid holiday and I would rather be alone than deal with this drama" *stomp foot*. My INTJ then made fun of me and kept calling me the grinch, and after a few days I was willing to admit that it was a ridiculous stance and recanted. I have seen intjs also be confounded by why thier enfps would take such ridiculous mini-stances on things...I tell them "wait three days and just ignore whatever they are saying today" For myself, I have built in the 3-5 day rule, where if I feel very strongly, I withdraw....if I still feel the same way in 3 and then 5 days, it is okay to act upon it...otherwise it was fleeting frustration and should be pondered but not acted upon...but making those stances is so so appealing....

    in the moment, these crazy stances seem like the easiest way to deal with the painful situation at hand, but in retrospect they are often totally nutter. But they place an immediate cap on the painful emotions and stop the hurt, thus are an easy out for the moment-immediate resolution to gain time for processing rather than emotional spewing. But at the cost of damaging a relationship as they can seem extremely blunt and caustic.

    haha, but this is one very narrow particular type of siutaion, you might see in an enfp, and I just wanted to share in case it maybe was what you saw in yours. I suspect you see the same types of behaviors in all types of other people for all types of other reasons too.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    However, I wouldn't have thought ENTPs would be so bothered by this sort of thing? Would they not be more like ENFPs in that respect? It would surprise me if the same things bothered ENTPs and INFJs in regard to communication styles, etc. Maybe this is just your ENTP?
    Ah, it is the Ti thing I think...A desire for precision and logical consistency. Old enfps, especially men, are pretty NeTe so will be throwing out ideas all over the place but always in a very heavy "This IS that" conversational tone-like rude ESTJs. They have no idea, I didnt either, as it is sort of like just voiceing what is in your brain. It comes across as almost combative or extremely reserved, yet condescencing. Totally inadvertantly though...but rude all the same, so entps kind of cringe at it. It is a double Ti-Fe fail all at once.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    cba to read the whole thing, but FP types seem to speak often before thinking often(or think while speaking normal stuff), happens more often in E, dunno really about EXFJ, but my guess is that its more of FiPe thing.

    edit. this naturally applies to real life conversations and probably not so much on internets speaking.
    I think you're correct that FPs speak without thinking. However, I think ExTPs might do so as well. So I'm thinking it's a Pe thing, yet least likely in IxTPs (of the Pe types).

  9. #39
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Sometimes, I don't know if the other person has reached a conclusion that I'm supposed to be listening to or if they're still just talking things out--especially if they're the kind to trail off mid-sentence anyway. I try not to come at other people with half-baked ideas, or, if I do, I get across that they're half-baked. Nothing irritates me more than unclear communication--it's as if people don't get that we say words to each other in order to get ideas across to one another.

    The only thing I can do is repeat their thought back to them ("So you're going to xyz?") to try to establish a clear expectation. If they affirm, then all is great; if they say "no" and keep talking.. then, yeah, rinse and repeat later.
    Yeah, this is really aggravating to me, too. I tend to believe that people are stating facts.

    My weak spot is when someone is speaking from their emotions. I tend to take what they say as facts.

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    Thinking before speaking? How about speaking before thinking! That sounds more fun.

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