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  1. #21
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I would be interested in a specific example or two, if that's not too much trouble entropie.

    -----

    As an aside, I often seem to have a lot of business ideas and even inventions coming to my mind, and I need to talk about them in order to refine them and see if they are viable. The idea itself is not fully formed before I articulate it - it seems like I have to get the half-formed thought out into the world in order to shape it into a fully formed one.

    IOW, I NEED to talk it out loud in order to determine if it's realistic or even anything I would really enjoy pursuing. Problem is, I am overly optimistic, but my hubs is more pessimistic. I have abandoned / been talked out of a couple of ideas that in hindsight would likely have been profitable if I had pursued ... and realized a good return on a couple of investments I was more willing to take a risk on than he was. So, is this about risk, and who's more willing to entertain such a thing?

    Perhaps your gf falls into that category. ??

    -----

    Anyways, example(s) please. It would be of tremendous help in order to feel out the dynamic better.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #22
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    ^^^ I often just blab stuf out. Sometimes I can't process thoughts if I don't bounce them off someone, either verbally or written. Sometimes my mouth gets ahead of me and the phrasing comes out wrong and I say something offending.

    I like it when other people who do the same. I guess I feel comforted that they aren't holding back. I'd much rather hear what people are thinking unprocessed than hear something overprocessed and affecting. A middle ground is welcome, though.

  3. #23
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    You can't change us. It's how we process information. For me, it's not just in conversation. It may be when I'm doing a complex problem or at work trying to figure something out. (Talking to self out loud during the process.) It sounds backwards. I don't see it as a flaw though, just a trait.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  4. #24
    Senior Member lightsun's Avatar
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    "How do words affect us? It seems it is both we are conditioned as well the energy expended at the other person. What is a mere word anyhow? But how the word is delivered, in another words tone and modulation can affect us with either the negative or the positive.

    In addition we are creatures of habit. Growing up we see how our peers, parents for the most part have a biggest influence, how they react determines how we act. This is unless we learn emotional discipline as well the use of logic. No one can insult us except ourselves." LightSun

    “Misperceptions can arise in daily use with our language. In one sense we live in both the interrelated reality of mankind, but yet in another each of us is a self-contained universe. What we hear is colored not with truth but rather our personal history.

    We can't truly really understand another. We also will and can filter all of which we perceive. The very brain then tries making order, but will mistakenly misinterpret the message from another. They will misinterpret to their own devising (unconscious) not hearing another's soul. To listen is a gift and as well a trait in need of developing. Our words will indeed damn ourselves." LightSun

  5. #25
    Senior Member lightsun's Avatar
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    The Power of Thought on Water
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-rantteBSM


    Scientists Prove DNA Can Be Reprogrammed by Words and Frequencies | Wake Up World
    http://wakeup-world.com/2011/07/12/s...s-frequencies/

    The Magical Power of WORDS to Create Your Destiny
    http://www.youtube.com/​watch?v=w3M6...re​=youtu.be

    The Power of Words
    http://www.youtube.com/​watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

  6. #26
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    This is an old thread but it is of interest to me.

    I have to admit that people speaking without thinking is one of my pet peeves, and I can get pretty pissy about it...basically because I really tend not to say things I don't mean, and so it upsets me when I thought someone was serious about something and they're just thinking aloud and have decided to do something different five minutes later.

    I mean, don't get me wrong - I am pedantic and non-spontaneous. But I don't talk rubbish!!

    I guess I just wish that even those who tend to think aloud would say "I'm thinking of doing xyz" instead of "I HAVE DECIDED TO DO XYZ. IT IS A DONE DEAL" when in fact, they haven't decided to do it at all and will be doing something totally different and even contradictory five minutes later.

    If you need to talk things through, fine, great. I do understand that. But why state things as fact when they're totally nebulous? Stupid people like me might be inclined to take what you've said as fact. Then I feel highly let down when I realise it's anything but fact.

    The only way I have worked out to cope with this is to believe very little of what people say and pay very little attention to their words. I wish I was joking, but I'm not.

    Sorry for my highly judgmental tone (no doubt) in this post...but this is something that has caused huge problems in my life in my relationships with others and I really wish there was a way to resolve it.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sorry for my highly judgmental tone (no doubt) in this post...but this is something that has caused huge problems in my life in my relationships with others and I really wish there was a way to resolve it.
    Sometimes, I don't know if the other person has reached a conclusion that I'm supposed to be listening to or if they're still just talking things out--especially if they're the kind to trail off mid-sentence anyway. I try not to come at other people with half-baked ideas, or, if I do, I get across that they're half-baked. Nothing irritates me more than unclear communication--it's as if people don't get that we say words to each other in order to get ideas across to one another.

    The only thing I can do is repeat their thought back to them ("So you're going to xyz?") to try to establish a clear expectation. If they affirm, then all is great; if they say "no" and keep talking.. then, yeah, rinse and repeat later.

  8. #28
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The thing is to get below thinking. But this only works if we are in touch with our deeper self, and then we allow our deeper self to speak.

    Some of us try to speak without being in touch with our deeper self, and so it just comes out as silly nonsense.

    But when we listen to our deeper self, we are listening to our lover.

  9. #29
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    This is an old thread but it is of interest to me.

    I have to admit that people speaking without thinking is one of my pet peeves, and I can get pretty pissy about it...basically because I really tend not to say things I don't mean, and so it upsets me when I thought someone was serious about something and they're just thinking aloud and have decided to do something different five minutes later.

    I mean, don't get me wrong - I am pedantic and non-spontaneous. But I don't talk rubbish!!

    I guess I just wish that even those who tend to think aloud would say "I'm thinking of doing xyz" instead of "I HAVE DECIDED TO DO XYZ. IT IS A DONE DEAL" when in fact, they haven't decided to do it at all and will be doing something totally different and even contradictory five minutes later.

    If you need to talk things through, fine, great. I do understand that. But why state things as fact when they're totally nebulous? Stupid people like me might be inclined to take what you've said as fact. Then I feel highly let down when I realise it's anything but fact.

    The only way I have worked out to cope with this is to believe very little of what people say and pay very little attention to their words. I wish I was joking, but I'm not.

    Sorry for my highly judgmental tone (no doubt) in this post...but this is something that has caused huge problems in my life in my relationships with others and I really wish there was a way to resolve it.
    To be honest, understanding how you feel on this issue was a huge turning point for me in how I intereact with INFJs. (Not that all INFJs are absolute on this, but it is a trend of sorts)

    I often start talking in mid senstence and then just stop....never finishing the sentance. It isnt uncommon for my sentances to be somewhat jumbled and incoherent or to have the word order all mixed up. I can speak to a large group and appear to be incredibly fluid and coherent, but I often mangle 1 on 1 conversation. When with another groups of enfps, we all seem to be doing it to some extent-almost like we leave out a lot of words, because we can figure out what the other person was going to say next anyways, so they were not needed.

    A HUGE issue, is that I need to speak (or write or externalize) my ideas in some way-if I dont do so, it is hard to make them coherent. This means that I will tend to talk about very nebulous ideas in a very enthusiastic concrete way, they change them five seconds later to a new version.

    My beloved entp best friend says that enfps are "always right" as we just keep updating the idea based on the most recent info we have....she says "but how do you know its right when you were wrong five minutes ago with the other idea? Doesnt that worry you?" Not in the slightest. I dont know why, but it doesnt matter if I am right or wrong on an idea-I have almost no attachment to being correct. As long as the idea is correlated and based upon the information that I understand to be true, I am not ill at ease by the fact that there may be unknown information or logical inconsistencies in the idea, as you'll never know everything...the idea is outside of me and is an evergrowing, ever extending matrix that will never be perfect but will be close enough to be useful from time to time. I just sort of hop from point to point on it, modifying my understanding of the problem at hand as I go to find the best solution?

    So, realizing this drives INFJs and ENTPs insane, I have tried to make a few changes in how I communicate:

    1. internalize ideas rather than talk about them
    2. confide ideas to someone close who can help me brainstorm and find flaws
    3. be certain the ideas I share with the entp/infj are pretty solid and actionable
    4. Cushion my entire speech pattern with possibilities. "This might be a possible course of action we could consider" rather than "This is what needs to be done"

    In the Nardi book, Nueroscience of personality, he notes that Ni doms both use a part of the brain that is called Precise speech. I most certainly dont use this part of my brain I suspect if you looked in that region, it'd look like this:



    Ah-wrt to OP, for an FP, I suspect learning to curb our tongues when we become frustrated is a lesson that takes time and maturity. However curbing ideas or expressions of genuine, if unflitered/unprocessed, emotion is actually a bit like being rejected. One of the most uertful things my ISTP ever said was "are you still talking?" So I stopped sharing my ideas and emotions with him....for the next ten years. I knew he couldnt be trusted to listen

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    cba to read the whole thing, but FP types seem to speak often before thinking often(or think while speaking normal stuff), happens more often in E, dunno really about EXFJ, but my guess is that its more of FiPe thing.

    edit. this naturally applies to real life conversations and probably not so much on internets speaking.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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