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  1. #51
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Fear of the dark, say, is pretty real. It's also irrational. Emotions have logic (to the beholder) but are not necessarily logical or rational when observed from the outside.

    It's interesting you should should give fear as an example. This little leftover from our days as apes!

    This is cognitive bias and appears real because you feel it. If you don't feel it the ghosts vanish - and you may enjoy your moonlight walk that much better...


    Observer bias was precisely the intellectual artifact I was referring to.


    And no: it isn't possible to eliminate it. Curiously, the more education one has, the greater the likelihood that his movements spiral from systems of logical bias.


    Fortunately, as knowledge deepens, the opacity of this constant grows weak.

    Patterns emerge where once only chaos stood.


    Ours is a shared fundamental identity.

  2. #52
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    ^ question: how shared is shared when people do not believe so? And act in manners to divide rather than to unite? "That my opinion is right because i feel so, therefore, you are wrong, because you are against me. And that gives me the right to strike against you."

    same thing as how, perhaps, because society emphasises on a life with feelings, that it's great, wonderful, it makes you human etc: what if i were to say, that we all want to feel because we are unconsiously obeying socio-biological rules merely?

    Plato: Rationality is the highest form of the soul.

    (note: the above may not necessarily represent my own view. i am throwing out another perspective for thought, that's all.)

    edit: to add in to JustDave's post: wasn't it the periods of logic which were periods of advancement in human society? The golden age of Islam, for instance, was when they focused on scientific knowledge and thinking, and openness. Instead of the fundamentalists whom we have now: all earlier results of global efforts to divide. (Terrorism, as we know it today, was born from the US-Soviet conflict in Afghanistan in the 50s-70s, when the CIA trained the mujahideen to fight against the Soviet, because US did not want to lose its own men there. That is how Islamic terrorists have all these guerilla tactics to use against the West: they came, ironically, from the covert black books of the CIA/US itself.)
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  3. #53
    actinomycetes raindancing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Is it really necessary for mankind to advance?
    I was only making an observation, no judgment meant.

    (Although personally I wouldn't want to be without my feelings... possibly would rather die first. My feelings are me.)
    “Can a man of perception respect himself at all?”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

  4. #54
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    ^ question: how shared is shared when people do not believe so? And act in manners to divide rather than to unite? "That my opinion is right because i feel so, therefore, you are wrong, because you are against me. And that gives me the right to strike against you."


    same thing as how, perhaps, because society emphasises on a life with feelings, that it's great, wonderful, it makes you human etc: what if i were to say, that we all want to feel because we are unconsiously obeying socio-biological rules merely?

    Plato: Rationality is the highest form of the soul.

    (note: the above may not necessarily represent my own view. i am throwing out another perspective for thought, that's all.)
    This is a tightly-worded question, elfinchilde, replete with booby-traps, I think!

    To answer your (subtle) question: No - my opinion is not absolute; in fact, it is a best-guess from a mind guilty of abhorrent ignorance. I'm nothing, if not a poor manifestation of western academia; economic privilege and inflated self-worth. Ultimately, my sentiments should not be trusted, as they're born of impossible cerebral inferiority.

    Despite my weaknesses, I can say with confidence that the desire for objectivity (as a strategy to evolve our understanding of ourselves) is wreathed with the scientific method of analysis - an orthodoxy designed to reduce subjectivity as to better understand the identifiable pieces of ourselves in a controlled setting - and while it is certainly not invulnerable to human bias, it offers a setting ideally removed from the quibblings between competing ideological viewpoints.


    We are matter.
    Matter is information with mass that takes up space.
    Information is energy.

    Therefore, the finality of our consciousness is likely best understood as heterogeneous energy sources engaging in self-analysis.

    Thus, differences in exotic human philosophical perspectives are likely without authentic credibility and might serve as evidence of creative environmental adaptation, versus legitimate testimony overturning the interconnectedness and diversity of our universe.

  5. #55
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This is a tightly-worded question, elfinchilde, replete with booby-traps, I think!

    To answer your (subtle) question: No - my opinion is not absolute; in fact, it is a best-guess from a mind guilty of abhorrent ignorance. I'm nothing, if not a poor manifestation of western academia; economic privilege and inflated self-worth. Ultimately, my sentiments should not be trusted, as they're born of impossible cerebral inferiority.

    Despite my weaknesses, I can say with confidence that the desire for objectivity (as a strategy to evolve our understanding of ourselves) is wreathed with the scientific method of analysis - an orthodoxy designed to reduce subjectivity as to better understand the identifiable pieces of ourselves in a controlled setting - and while it is certainly not invulnerable to human bias, it offers a setting ideally removed from the quibblings between competing ideological viewpoints.


    We are matter.
    Matter is information with mass that takes up space.
    Information is energy.

    Therefore, the finality of our consciousness is likely best understood as heterogeneous energy sources engaging in self-analysis.

    Thus, differences in exotic human philosophical perspectives are likely without authentic credibility and serve as evidence of creative environmental adaptation, versus legitimate testimony overturning the interconnectedness and diversity of our universe.
    if there were booby traps then, they have been successfully evaded, Night.

    In short (correct me if i'm wrong):

    that because humans are emotive, hence there is a certain instinct for logic so as to quantify, qualify and order what we are feeling.

    And once this is in place, the self is superseded in view of the whole.

    Hence comes about the unity between disparate beings.

    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  6. #56
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post


    Observer bias was precisely the intellectual artifact I was referring to.

    And no: it isn't possible to eliminate it. Curiously, the more education one has, the greater the likelihood that his movements spiral from systems of logical bias.
    How very true. I'll have what you're drinking and buy you another!

  7. #57
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Is it really necessary for mankind to advance?
    Yes.
    Advance is a back road. A rear window.

    Cognition is the past.
    The front is behind you.

    There is nothing in the back of the mirror.

  8. #58
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    It's also emotion that leads to destruction.
    I'm not so jaded or afraid of pain to choose a life without emotion. I'll take emotion.

    Oh, and I think mankind has a natural instinct to advance. Maturity is an example of that, but even on a "bigger scale," the same principle applies.
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

  9. #59
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    There are times and days like these, where I wish all emotions and memory could be taken away from me.

    In that whiteness of a hollowed self, perhaps there is peace.

    I know suffering is optional, but I cannot help clinging on.

    "The world forgetting, by the world forgot.
    Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind"

    True that the experience brings growth. etc. Humility too.

    But the price it exacts is a heavy one.

    I am not sure what else more of me, I can pay.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    If you were given the option to have a life without having emotions, would you choose it? Would you be willing to throw out happiness if it meant getting rid of sadness? Why or why not?
    Coming in late to the thread, but I have a hard time deciding.

    I know people have asked "what would be the point?" and such, but mine is more a question of what would give us motivation even to do little things like getting up in the morning, etc. Would it all be out of habit/genetics?

    When it makes rational sense to change our habits, would we simply train ourselves to change our ways? no emotional resistance, etc.?

    Also, what about dealing with others, would they not have emotions to read, take into account, as well?

    If the above is true in your hypothetical then I would lean towards "yes."

    I am someone who experiences mostly negative emotion (anxiety, fear, sadness, etc.), so I am not fond of them. I would prefer to have those emotions disappear, and I wouldn't be giving up much by not experiencing happiness.

    With that said, I know a real person cannot function without emotion, since emotions are the source of motivation. Emotions are what give us the motivation to do something different from our habits. It allows us to change, or continue with life when our routine is no longer possible.

    Emotions also, allow us to interact with others more effectively, since we can empathize or sympathize based on them.

    Emotions are so basic to being human, that they cannot be given up.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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